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Date: Friday, 25 February 1994 03:01 est
From: homebrew-request at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM (Request Address Only - No Articles)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1358 (February 25, 1994)
Reply-To: homebrew at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
To: homebrew at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM
Errors-To: [email protected]
Precedence: bulk

HOMEBREW Digest #1358 Fri 25 February 1994

Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor

Misc answers & comments (U-E68316-Scott Wisler)
Ultra clear Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (Richard Nantel)
Reinheitsgebot (Dave Smucker)
Velvet Stout ("Just a shot in the dark, one step away from you now!")
Kegging (Peter OConnor)
Cookers (tyk)
Brewpub Startup, The Source! (Julie Schlueter)
re: legal limits to homebrewing (Dick Dunn)
James Page Brew Kits ("Ball, Timothy B")
Too Technical/Cookbooks (8-293-5810 or (914))"
Lambic misnomer (Andrew Ireland)
Some Replys (Thomas Redmond)
Racking from carboy (Rob Royce)
Re: Laura's Theme (TODD CARLSON)
Brewpub Requests and Plastic Buckets (npyle)
Re: artesians (Gordon Baldwin)
Electric Stove Helper ("Steven W. Smith")
Kegged beer storage life (Eric Wade)
away from the office (Kirsten Hayes)
Brewpub Requests/Reviews in the HBD, Publist ("J. Andrew Patrick")
Cook Book Approach (Pat Anderson)
Tampa brewpubs (darrin stolba)
Brewpub Info (Derrick Pohl)
queen of beer contest (btalk)
Hop Aroma and Flavor (Glen Tinseth)
Re: Fermenting in plastic (adc)
Flakey (stretchy) substance in bottles/Bumpy O2-absorbing caps (korz)
Cooking vs Rocket Science (Eriks Ziemelis)
Brews in plastic bottles (Steven Kurtz)

Send articles for __publication_only__ to [email protected]
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 94 17:43:12 EST
From: U-E68316-Scott Wisler
Subject: Misc answers & comments

Scott Wisler here. I'm masquerading on a different machine, so replys
to the address below. I was recently reminded by Darryl Richmond that
HBD is what we put into it, and I am thus damping my frusteration about
noise by attempting to add signal.


Lee Menegni is on a quest for malt flavor. I was reading the archives
recently (the all_grain_equipment file in particular) and came across an
article by Russ Pencin on 12/18/91. He attended a class with Dr. Lewis
and learned about the degradatoin of crystal malts at mash temperatures.
Russ changed his technique to add the crystal just before the mashout
and claims to have a significant inprovement in malty flavor. At this
point, what I know is what I've read. I'd like to see some discussion
on this point.

To get the archive file, read the header on the HBD. Send email to the
listserver. Help is good to start. then try:

get homebrew all_grain_equipment


William Boyle askes about a Pete's Wicked clone. I know I've seen an
extract recipe for this. It used a specific liquid extract that already
had some specialty grains in it. I thought I kept it, but no. try
searching the archives (see above) with the command:

search homebrew wicked


search homebrew pete's

you can then get the listserver to send you the relevant digest copies.


Mark Garetz talks about hop AA%. I'm very interested in reading your
upcoming book. You've made a number of assertions here on the Digest,
and I'm looling forward to examining your supporting data. I'm not
aware of much really detailed information in the literature.

My own observations: I can distinguish bitterness levels based on
Rager's formulae (which I understand to be just a thumbnail sketch
through some emperical data - certainly not 3 significant digit
accuracy). In other words, I perceive 40 estimated IBUs (eIBU), calculated
from Rager's formulae, to be more bitter than 34 eIBU (for the similar
beers, same OG). I often have difficulty trying to decern differences
if the eIBU difference is less than 10% or so. I also have a simple
`balanced bitterness' line from Martin Manning which has proved
remarkably useful in getting to the right place in the ballpark. So,
I'm calibrated in Rager's method; it works well for me, but has its
limitations. i.e. scaling, differences in wort composition, yeasts,
accuracy, etc. I have to backstop Norms comments a month or so ago:
I'm grounded in Rager's method and it works for me most of the time.

I guess what bothers me most right now is that you've asserted one
source of error in the process is more important than others, without
an error stackup analysis. For example, there is perception (+/- 5-10%),
actual AA% in the hops used (What is a reasonable standard deviation?),
error in calculation formulae (sd?), and a host of other process variables
discussed here in HBD. I'd like to see some data on variability before
I lean one way or the other on formulae errors.

BTW, I think the Brewing community is lucky to have someone dedicated to
persuit of hop issues like this. Lets see some data and discussion!

Was Dr. Lewis refering to Micro's who are trying to develop a recipe, or
those who have an established recipe and have process variability? I
would disagree with him if he was discussing the later.


Bob Bessette writes:
(not picking on you, just had a conceptual data point)

>I've heard that the quality of the final product increases dramatically
>[when you switch to all grain]

It was decicively demonstrated to me that all grain is not _dramatically_
better than extract. I visited Kinney Baughman at Tumbleweed last fall
and had my perceptions changed for good. I had a big improvement when I
switched from extract to all grain! But now, with some perspective, I think
I quickly improved the raw materials and technique and attributed the
improvement to all grain. The key is to perfect your technique in areas
besides mashing, use the best quality ingredients (Alexander's was
recommended to me by Kinney). Good quality whole hops, excellent yeast,
sanitation, careful fermentation, etc. Some respectable Micros are using
extract, maybe right under our noses.

>just the fact that you
>are creating from scratch and not relying on an extract producer is the
>other alluring aspect of all-grain brewing.

This is a good reason to switch and is why I still am all grain!


Backpack brewing:

I'm lucky to carry an extra change of clothes when I backpack. I
wouldn't want to carry a brewkettle, carboy, and bottles! ๐Ÿ™‚


Karl Sweitzer talks about sweetening meads and Potassium Sorbate. I
thought wine had sulfites added to inhibit the yeast when the desired
dryness was reached. My wife has anaphalatic (I can't pronounce it
either, but its bad, very bad) reactions to wine preservatives. Is
Potassium Sorbate added to commercial wine? I'm not really into wine,
but it would be nice to make some that she could drink once in a while.
Special occasions, etc. Dr. Fix, do you have any experience with
stopping wine fermentation with filtration? Does one filter out most of
the good stuff, as with beer filtration to 1 micron?

Thanks for reading and supporting HBD

[email protected]


Date: 23 Feb 94 19:10:03 EST
From: Richard Nantel <[email protected]>
Subject: Ultra clear Sierra Nevada Pale Ale

I received many recipe requests for my ultra clear SNPA I wrote about in
HB1356. Here it is. The first recipe listed is a basic SNPA recipe
suggested by many HBD readers about a month ago (thanks to all). The second
recipe is what I actually brewed. I increased the amount of all ingredients
to produce a 5 imperial gallon batch (22.5 litres, 6US gallons). Also, I
made 3 substitutions due to lack of availability at my local homebrew
supply shop. Since I've never tasted a SNPA, (unavailable in Canada) I
don't know how closely my recipe matches the real thing. What was produced
is a crystal clear pale ale with a great hop flavor and bouquet that smokes
anything I've ever brewed. Finally, sorry about the standard/metric switch,
all ingredients are sold in metric in Canada so get those calculators out.

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (HBD readers' suggestion)
5US gallons

10 lbs Klages 2-row pale malt
.5 lbs Cara Pils Malt
.5 lbs Crystal (40L) Malt
1 oz Perle, 6.8% AAU, 60 minutes
.5 oz Cascade, 5.5% AAU, 30 minutes
.5 oz Cascade, 5.5% AAU, 5 minutes
1 oz Cascade, 5.5% AAU, dry hop in secondary (optional)
1 quart #1056 yeast starter
3/4 cup priming sugar

O.G. 1.048, F.G. 1.008 - 1.014, 33.6 IBUs
Mash temperature 153-155F.

Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (My version)
22.5 Litres (6US gallons)

5.4 kg British 2-row malt
271 gms Cara Pils Malt
271 gms Crystal Malt
33.6 gms Northern Brewer, 6.8% AAU (pellets), 60 minutes
16.8 gms Cascade, 5.5% AAU (pellets), 30 minutes
1 tsp Irish Moss flakes, 15 minutes
16.8 gms Cascade, 5 minutes
60 gms Cascade, dry hopped in secondary
2, 7gm pkgs gelatine dissolved in .5 litre boiling water added in racking
to secondary
2 pkgs Coopers dry (starter)
90 gms priming sugar

O.G. 1.050, F.G. 1.016

Single step mash 158F (1 hour)
Sparge temperature 165F (.5 hour)
Water = distilled + 1 tsp gypsym added before mash
In primary 4 days (70F)
In secondary 7 days (70F)

Notes: 90 gms priming sugar is only about 3 oz, 1/2 cup in 6 US gallons and
yet the carbonation is perfect. IMHO, the 3/4 cup standard is much too
I chose Cooper's yeast because, although it isn't #1056, it's neutral and
I still have no idea why this came out so completely void of chill haze.

Richard Nantel
Montreal, Quebec, Canada


Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 18:51:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Dave Smucker
Subject: Reinheitsgebot

In HBD #1355 Dan Z. Johnson comments about " Reinheitsgebot "
and how there are good beers in countries without it. True,
but have you ever had a BAD beer in Germany? Have you ever had
a BAD BAD beer in the good old USA? Yep!! Enough said.

Dave Smucker


Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 14:17:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "Just a shot in the dark, one step away from you now!"
Subject: Velvet Stout

Has anyone had the new
Miller Reserve Velvet Stout yet?
and is it as good as their other reserve beers

I'm off to a store to look for it


Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 18:48:01 -0700 (MST)
From: [email protected]

I recently brewed a simple batch of Amber Ale with John Bull
malt extract. I carefully sanitized every piece of equipment throughout
the process and performed each step exactly as I had been instructed by
the company from whom I bought the equipment. Unfortunately, after
a week and a half of carbonating the beer, I sampled it, only to find that
the beer had an obvious cider taste to it.
Just wondering if anyone has any advice for my next batch.


Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 20:13:16 -0800
From: Don Put

Subject: High Altitude Brewing (The kind without THC)

Hello, All:

I recently moved to the mountains and my brew house is now at 6000 ft. I've
been told that hop utilization is affected to a fairly significant degree
at this altitude (thanks, Mark). Now, do any of you high-altitude brewers
have any other comments or suggestions pertaining to this type of brewing?

[email protected]


Date: Wed, 23 Feb 94 23:50:15 EST
From: [email protected] (Peter OConnor)
Subject: Kegging

Hi Folks,

I am thinking about getting into kegging (a few too many hours washing
bottles.) and have a couple of questions.

First, What is needed. Obviously a couple of 5-6 gal keg-like containers and
a cylinder of co2 with regulator and hoses, probably some orings or whatever
to seal the kegs. Anything else?

Second, How much should it cost?

Thanks for your help.
Private email encouraged.
I will boil down the responses and re-submit them for the interested.

[email protected]


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 00:54:57 EST
From: [email protected]
Subject: Cookers

I bought a King Cooker from a local homebrew shop for $39.95. He also
sells 5 gal. glass carboys for $9.50. If interested, send email and
I will forward contact info. Insert usual disclaimer.

[email protected]


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:57:59 +0000 (JST)
From: Julie Schlueter
Subject: Brewpub Startup, The Source!

Want to start a brewpub or brewery?

Here's the place for publications

Brewers Publications
P.O. Box 1679
Boulder, CO 80306-1679

Examples: Brewery Planner about $80 (nonmember)
Brewers Resource

Considering School:
Malting & Brewing Science
University Extension
Davis, CA 95616-8727


Siebel Institute
4055 W. Petersen
Chicago, IL 60646
The Siebel Institute has a complete program in the $7,200 area. Read
you latest Zymurgy (Vol.16 No.5) about John Mallett, Tells his
experience with Siebel.

What's a Zymurgy look in the dictionary
well here's there address too:
P.O. Box 1679
Boulder, CO 80306-1679
Subscription (US)$29 yr. or (Foreign)$44 yr.

I have found Zymurgy a good location for brewing supplies and answers
to a lot of question, been with them for 3 yrs now.

personals welcome at [email protected]
or [email protected]
AKA: Newbrewer


Date: 23 Feb 94 23:29:55 MST (Wed)
From: [email protected] (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: legal limits to homebrewing

[This is USA law in what follows; apologies to non-USA readers]

[email protected] asks:
> I understand that legally we're limited to 200 gallons per household.

(Just for AR precision, that's 200 gal/yr/household of 2 or more adults,
100 gal/yr for one person.)

> Who keeps track of this? What do they do to you if you exceed your allotment?
> How do they *know*? (whoever 'they' is; I don't mean to sound paranoid...)

The regulations belong to BATF--Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
(27 CFR 25.*, if you care to dig it out.)

If you go over, they make you stop. OK, seriously, what's going on? Taxes
and sin-control. Mostly taxes. They don't want you running a commercial
operation and not paying liquor taxes. What do they do? More a question
of what *can* they do...they've got various options. If you make more than
the 200 gal/yr limit, they could get you for not having a brewery license,
for not paying taxes on the beer, ... [You can only begin to imagine the
rules a licensed brewery has to obey!] Why would they do any of these
things? To get you to pay the taxes or stop brewing too much. Or because
you're a person that somebody has decided needs to be harrassed. Mostly
the former; only the latter if you piss off the right person.

How do they know? Well, if you've got your son selling beer from a lemonade
stand on the sidewalk in the summer, it's easy. If you're getting carried
away, and somebody complains, that's where it starts. Otherwise (i.e.,
most of the cases anyone would care about) they find out the same way "they"
find out about any victimless crime.

Seriously, the numbers are there because they have to put some sort of
number in the law to define the upper limit of "homebrewing". The idea is
to draw a line between brewing for home use and brewing as something on the
edge of commercial. You could make 150 gal/yr and get busted if you tried
to sell it. (That's a serious point. You can make it, drink it, serve it
at home, take it to competitions and tastings...all fine. But DO NOT offer
your beer in any circumstance that can be construed as "selling" it without
being licensed.)

> These are all hypothetical questions; my husband and I couldn't possibly drink
> 200 gallons of anything in a year.

Well, if you get close, start alternating with wine/mead. There are
separate limits for beer and wine (and if you think 200 gal/yr of beer is a
- ---
Dick Dunn [email protected] -or- raven!rcd Boulder, Colorado USA
...Mr Natural says, "Get the right tool for the job!"


Date: Wed, 23 Feb 94 08:45:00 est
From: "Ball, Timothy B"
Subject: James Page Brew Kits

>pg 43: James Page Brewing Kits: "Specially formulated for taste, quality
> and ease of brewing by the award winning James Page microbrewery
> in St. Paul, MN" (Frankly, I've never heard of them.) The kits
> contain 6# of hopped malt extract, aroma hops and yeast. The
> exception is the American Lager which has 4.5# malt and 1.5# corn
> syrup. They have Burton Pale Ale, Midlands Brown Ale, Bavarian
> Dark, Amber Maerzen, American Lager, Continental Pilsner & Wheat
>(65% wheat malt, 35% barley malt).

>3-J-241 $16.95

If you order these directly from James Page they also have some
"intermediate" kits that have 8-9 lbs of extract, hops plugs, specialty
grains, and liquid yeast for about $25. I 've made two of the $16.95 kits
(Amber Maerzen and Bavarian Dark) and both were good. I've made one of the
intermediate kits (Holiday Brau) and it was excellent. If any one has tried
some of the other kits let me know how they were.
[email protected]. No affiliation with James Page and all the


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 07:38:55 EST
From: "Paul Austin (8-293-5810 or (914))"
Subject: Too Technical/Cookbooks

I offer my services as a writer to anyone who'd like to help
create such a book as Laura Conrad suggests. Oddly, I am a
was technical writer, and this might disqualify me for the
job in some peoples minds. But because of having that job
for awhile, and dealing with enormous technical mumbo-jumbo
for the past year, I understand all the better the need for
books designed for the non-techie. I also received some
training in avoiding the style of writing that obfuscates the
issue, and a BA in writing (not literature OR science) also

What I need is a person who IS technically competent to help
me translate the arcane language into useable terms for the
rest of the world.

The offer stands.

Paul Austin


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 13:01:34 GMT
From: Andrew Ireland
Subject: Lambic misnomer

On Wed, 23 Feb 94, Gary S. Kuyat wrote...
>Joel Birkeland asked again about Wyeast's Brettanomyces culture. I have used
>it to make a framboise! (raspberry lambic)

FYI a lambic beer is a beer brewed _only_ in the Payottenland area of Belgium
West of Brussles. A lambic (or lembeek in Dutch) is a beer that has no yeast
pitched into it. It is open to the elements usually in the roof of a covered
barn with slats which can be opened at both gable ends. The brewer usually
doesn't take too much trouble about cleanliness, (cobwebs common!), and its
the wild yeasts that float in that give the lambic family its distinctive taste.

My personal favourite is a Gueze beer, this is a mix of old and new lambic beers
blended in much the same way as a blended whisky is put together. Fruit beers
made with a lambic base have the word "Lambic" on the label, other fruit beers
like the excellent Liefmans Framboise use a 'normal' brown beer for their base,
and should not have "lambic" mentioned anywhere.

Traditional Belgian lambic's and fruit beers have a high wheat content, and
this is probably where Sam Adams Cranberry Lambic gets mixed up in its name.

I'm out here in Scotland, so most of the stuff on the HBD is pretty irrelevant,
(i.e. U.S. based) but I'd be interested to hear if anyone has attempted to brew
a "wild" beer.

p.s. Have a read at the excellent "Michael Jackson's Beer Companion"
- --
Andrew Ireland
Memex Information Systems Ltd., East Kilbride, G75 0YN, Scotland, UK.
[email protected] Tel: (03552) 33804 Fax: (03552) 39676


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:41:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Thomas Redmond
Subject: Some Replys

Andrew Winner asks about how to siphon to/from a carboy. I haven't heard of
anyone else who does this but, I have a little plastic crimp valve that fits
over the siphon hose to shut off flow. These are less than a dollar. I use a
piece of (sanatized) plastic tube that fits into the hose to start the siphon,
shut off the crimp valve and replace the start tube with a longer tube to reach
the bottem of the carboy.

Scott asked about using a blow-off hose. I always use a blowoff hose for the
primary ferment. I would suggest at least a 1/4" hose at least 5' long that is
secured to a large (1/2 gal +) container of bleach solution. This prevents
very vigorous ferments from fouling an airlock. This is particularly a problem
with meads or with high pitching rates.

About removing kraeusen, I do. I also lose some portion of the wort. I can't
comment about the effects of not removing it because I always have. It's not
much additional effort so who wants to take chances.

One last comment about chillers, the second great advantage of using a chiller
is that if you do a full boil you can take hours off the time you need on
brewing day. Before I made my chiller, I tried several alternative cooling
methods including ice/water bath, exposure to subzero temps and addition of
chilled, boiled water. Each of these methods took at least an hour
(mostly more) to reach pitching temp. With the immersion chiller using 60degF
water I get from full rolling boil to 80degF in 15min.

I have bought several new glass carboys from a Corning outlet store in Fremont
Indiana for $10.00. If there is one in your area you may want to check the
prices. Tom R.


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 09:52:15 EST
From: [email protected] (Rob Royce)
Subject: Racking from carboy

I am looking for a better way to rack my brew from the carboy
to the bottling bucket. Has anyone else tried puting a spigot
on the side of their carboy? I have tried 3 times and every
time I use a centerpunch to mark the pilot hole the carboy breaks.
I tried using a smaller hammer, but that didn't work either.

Rob the crusher ;~}

Brew,Drink,Don`t be anal.


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 10:37:01 EST
From: [email protected] (TODD CARLSON)
Subject: Re: Laura's Theme

I am glad to see that Laura's ideas on non-techinal brewing
got so much attention yesterday. I posted similar ideas a
couple of months ago and was mostly ignored. I guess Laura
must have said it better. All you "techno-weenies"
shouldn't feel offended. You have elevated home brewing
technology to the point where beginners CAN make great beer
easily (it is my understanding that this was not always the
case). But the point is that the home brew community has
not done all it could to make this info accesible to the
beginner. Jeff pointed out yesterday that the standard
5-gal batch size is intimidating for beginners. My beer
making improved dramatically last fall when I stopped using
hopped extract "kits" and started brewing 1 gal at a time.
I am convinced that for many beginners this is the best
approach. Tell your freinds.

[email protected]


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 9:03:17 MST
From: [email protected]
Subject: Brewpub Requests and Plastic Buckets

Derek Sheehan writes:

>Get over to the library and find the "The Brewer's Digest." This is the
>trade magazine for the brewing industry. Every year they publish a
>complete listing of breweries and brewpubs listed by state.

There is also a paperback book that lists all the brewpubs, but the name
escapes me ("On Tap" maybe???). The author puts out an update every year to
cover openings and closings. Jeff Frane's comments are well taken. This forum
is for homebrewing, not beer drinking (although I'd bet most of us end up
drinking the beer after brewing it). The caviat that I would throw in is this:
If the brewpub(s) being discussed offer tours, and especially if they cater to
homebrewers, then I think the thread is appropriate. If not, then not.

>What is the crime for fermenting in plastic buckets?

>Beware! I am a chemist and I firmly don't believe
>a plastic surface that is between 1 and 2 mm thick can transport any
>detectableamount of oxygen.

Beware, Derek, I am an engineer and a smart-ass to boot! I think the real
drawback to plastic is that it scratches easily. The scratches can contain
pockets of bacteria which sanitizers won't always reach. If you don't throw
your brewing gear into the bucket for storage, and you don't clean it with an
abrasive scrubber, a plastic bucket should work well for years.



Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:26:13 -0800 (PST)
From: [email protected] (Gordon Baldwin)
Subject: Re: artesians

Russell Kofoed writes:
> Howdy folks, Remember those commercials for Olympia beer in the 70's?
> Well I live in Olympia and there is, believe it or not, an artesian spring
> which gushes out of a pipe in a parkinglot downtown. I was wondering
> about brewing with the stuff. It is great tasting water. Do you think it
> will come with wierd micro-organisms or anything? I was thinking of just
> sterilizing 5 gallon milk jugs and going down and filling up-using two for
> cooking and putting three in the fridge to add before pitching the yeast.
> Does this sound like a workable idea?
> Thanks in advance
That sounds like a good idea. I live just a few miles from the Olympia
brewery and they always brag about their great water. Tell me of your
results if you try it. Also I have heard rumors that you can get
ingredients in bulk from the Olympia brewery, but I havn't been able to
find anyone at the brewery that can confirm that.

A good west wind and I can smell the brewery from my house. ๐Ÿ™‚
Too bad their beer sucks. ๐Ÿ™

- --
Gordon Baldwin
[email protected]


Date: 24 Feb 1994 09:57:38 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith"
Subject: Electric Stove Helper

I've been tossing around my options for reducing my average brew time to less
than 6 hours (electric stove)- the main problem is getting that much water
boiling or heated. The obvious choice is to buy some sort of mega gas burner.
Another thought was buying or fabricating a 3/8" copper disk that would sit
on the electric stove burner under my brewpot. I tend to run the stove at
less than max to prevent scorching, the disk would be to distribute the heat
evenly across the bottom of the pot. It seems that this would also be handy to
have if/when I get a gas burner. Anyone done this? Was it worth it? Is there
some magic goo to spread between the metal surfaces to help conduct heat?
AHEM! (just clearing my throat). As I mentioned a couple digests ago, SEND
ME YOUR CREAM ALE INFO Please! I've got 2 responses, both from people who
want me to forward any recipes I get. Thankew, aloha.
\o.O; Steven W. Smith, Programmer/Analyst
=(___)= Glendale Community College, Glendale Az. USA
U [email protected]
Home, home on the range. Stirring all night and all daaay...


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:54:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Eric Wade
Subject: Kegged beer storage life

I've just put 5 gallons of pale ale (og 1.050) into a keg for the first
time and realize that all the kegging info I've read still leaves me with
a couple of questions.

I read here or somewhere about the "shelf life" of cask conditioned real
ale once tapped. This was referring to gravity flow, open-to-air serving
and basically implied that low gravity beers were good for a few days,
high gravs for a few weeks.

Questions: What about CO2 dispensed beer, non-filtered, keg primed? I
assume that as long as there is no exposure to oxygen, the keg should last
as long as an unopened bottle even if I serve part of it, correct? What
problems might I encounter if I refridgerate the keg for serving, pour
only half, and then return the keg to my 55-60 F storage shed (I don't yet
have a fridge I can dedicate to beer only). If I do return the keg to
storage, what level of pressure should I leave in the keg? This will be
dependent upon keg temperature when I disconnect the gas I assume?

[no flames, no quoted posts, no extensive sig, just a beer question]


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:20:59 +0800
From: [email protected] (Kirsten Hayes)
Subject: away from the office

Re: ""

I will be away from the office until Thursday February 24
and will read your message when I return.

I will check my voicemail periodically while I'm away.
If you have an urgent message leave me voicemail at 415/336-4188.

If you have questions Thursday 2/17 or Friday 2/18
you may contact the SHWP Account Managers via

[email protected]



Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 11:24:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "J. Andrew Patrick"
Subject: Brewpub Requests/Reviews in the HBD, Publist

Jeff Frane writes in HBD#1357:

> Please note the name of this thingie you get in the e-mail. It is the
> "Homebrew" Digest. I realize that a previous suggestion that pub lists
> and requests for pub lists go elsewhere got negative responses but the
> digest is a lot busier, and a lot more crowded these days. So again:
> take it elsewhere. Requests, yes. But let's keep the answers to e-mail
> or send the person (as someone did, correctly) to the right place for
> the existing list.

I'm getting really tired of being told "You can't post THIS!", "You can't
post THAT!". The following quote is from the OFFICIAL DESCRIPTION of this
discussion group, as published in Paul Gilster's excellent book,
The Internet Navigator:

"The Homebrew Mailing List is primarily for the discussion of the making and
TASTING of beer, ale, and mead. Related issues, such as BREWERIES, books,
judging, COMMERCIAL BEERS, beer festivals, etc. ARE ALSO DISCUSSED.

"Wine making talk is welcome, but non-homemade wine talk is not".

Reviews of brand new brewpubs certainly are IN, based on this description.
Now, if the official criteria for submissions were to be changed to exclude
brewpub reviews, I would be more than happy to comply.

Also, regarding the suggestion that everybody just check the latest Brewers'
Digest for brewpubs listings:

This book is hopelessly out of date because of the rapid growth in this
industry. I personally have visted 7 brewpubs that are not in last year's
edition because they are quite simply TOO NEW. They are not listed in the
Publist, either, BTW. So, how is the craft-beer loving traveller supposed
to find these brand new places, without turning to like-minded colleagues
on the HBD?

BTW, The Publist has not been updated since November 12, 1992 (at least,
that is the date on the version currently at

There's been a LOT of changes in the brewpub biz since then!
|Sysop | Andrew Patrick | Founder|
|Home Brew Univ| AHA/HWBTA Recognized Beer Judge |Home Brew Univ|
|Midwest BBS | SW Brewing News Correspondent | Southwest BBS|
|(708)705-7263 |Internet:[email protected]| (713)923-6418|


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 07:23:00 -0800
From: [email protected] (Pat Anderson)
Subject: Cook Book Approach

>Laura Conrad suggests a cookbook-style brewing book. Laura, I have a
>comment on that, "YES!!!"

>Actually, I would guess that a large segment of the brewing population
>takes a decidedly non-technical approach to making good beer. I would also
>guess that the segment represented by HBD is badly skewed toward AR techno-
>nerds who routinely worry about insignificant digits.

I agree. I have been brewing a long time (since 1965). I now
brew mostly all grain. The most complicated things I use are a
thermometer and a hydrometer. No pH tests, no complicated
formulas. I could dispense with the hydrometer if I wanted to. I
view brewing as a kitchen art, although just like a lot of other
things, an art that has been aided immensely by science. The
"worrying about insignificant digits" is exactly what I see in
today's books and magazines.

Unless you have _really_ unsuitable water, and you no doubt
already know if you have water _that_ bad, if you mix the grains
with hot water, you are going to get conversion...Tried and true
hopping schedules, using AA% if known on a "seat of the pants"
basis, are going to be close enough, unless you insist on
achieving a commercial uniformity (to which there is really no
point in homebrewing). It is not the science itself that is
important in homebrewing, as I see it: it is applying whatever
practical lessons the people who generally know whereof they
speak (Dr. Lewis & Dave Logsdon, to name two) can extract from
the science...


Date: 24 Feb 94 13:24:22 EST
From: William A Kuhn <[email protected]>

First, thanks to all who replied to our high bicarbonate/low calcium water
question. The concensus is to treat the H20 with a small amount of Lactic
acid before the boil. This has worked well so far, the beers in the fermenter

Second, we are considering using a stainless steel keg as boiling pot. The
keg (1/2 barrel) we have is the staight sided type, the questions are:
1. Where should we have the welder cut the keg (on the top on the
inside of the handles or on the side below the handles)?
2. To those who use a keg as a boiling pot- How do you conduct the
2a. Is your keg configured as a mashing/lautering tun in one
with a false bottom and spigot?
3. How would you improve your design if you could do it again?
4. What are the major cautions you have for us (note: a professional
welder will be doing the job for us)?
5. What do you use for a lid to this kettle?

Thanks in advance for allowing us to pick your brains and rummage through your
chest of experience. The level of discussion in the HBD is valuable to me and
I am glad to see that we are starting to refocus our discussion on the
techniques, chemistry, tools, intuition and critical appreciation of beer that
make the digest a excellent resourvcve for all levels of enthusiast.

PS: I will happily organize the responses for reposting if anyone else is
interested in this topic.


Date: 24 Feb 94 13:40:51-0500
From: [email protected]
Subject: Ice Brew Q's

Well sorry I haven't written in a while, but, sadly we do have to pay the

Recently there has been an onslaught of new "ice beers" and the issue I need
some clarification on is, in the advertising they specificly say that their
beer is brewed below freezing...(IE: Molson) Now I have never been one to
question advertising (being trapped as many were in the 80's lack o' truth in
Advertising) but it would seem to me that this not possible.
a: water/beer freezes (with the exception of the alcohol)
b: our friends, Yeast, don't particularly like cold weather and tend to stay
in bed(hibernate).

So for you, the few, the knowledgeable, please disperse with some bandwidth on
the topic.

Also related questions:
What is Ice beer(really)

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected] Always remember..
-or- [email protected] where ever you go, there you are.


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 14:27:27 EST
From: [email protected] (darrin stolba)
Subject: Tampa brewpubs

Are there any brewpubs in the Tampa area? I will be there the
week of March 12th and NEED a fine crafted brew.
please send responses to

[email protected]



Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 11:33:10 -0800
From: [email protected] (Derrick Pohl)
Subject: Brewpub Info

If we're looking for things to eliminate or minimize in HBD in order to
reduce volume, I'd agree with previous suggestions that brewpub requests &
info be targets. Requests are OK if they're short & sweet (1 or 2 lines)
but the responses should go via e-mail. If you *really* want to tell the
world about pubs, put in a 1 or 2 line announcement in HBD that you've got
very exciting news about brewpubs in "Locality x" and can be e-mailed for
details. The small proportion of the readership who actually live in or
will be visiting the area can then get the info if they want it.

N.B. I personally would exclude from this guideline posts concerning the
actual brewing procudures of brewpubs, a topic which I think is of interest
to many readers.

- -----
Derrick Pohl
University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C.


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 15:10:12 EST
From: [email protected]
Subject: queen of beer contest

Whoever has the info on this contest:
Please email it to me, I managed to misplace what I had and some of the women
in my club are interested in entering.
Bob Talkiewicz, binghamton, NY ([email protected])


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 15:56:15 -0500
From: [email protected] (Shawn Kennedy)

Hi all! If there's anyone out there with a very
SAM ADAMS LIKE homebrew recipe, could you *please*
mail it to me off-line? I have the 2 from the cats
meow but am looking for more.

Much thanx in advance.

-Shawn, fermenting in New England
[email protected]


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:19:39 -0800
From: [email protected] (Glen Tinseth)
Subject: Hop Aroma and Flavor

Bob Talkiewicz ([email protected]) wants to put together a hop aroma and
flavor identification program. It just so happens that I have some
information on hop teas, having recently put together a small article
on hop flavor and aroma for Brewing Techniques.

Bob's intuition is correct. A hop tea is a great way to get acquainted
with the aroma and flavor characteristics of different hop varieties. It
also serves as the most reliable way of evaluating the aroma potential of
your hops, unless you happen to have a gas chromatograph. Other claims have
been made regarding oil% but that is all they are, unsupported claims.

That said, how do you make a delicious and nutritious hop tea? I'm sure that
a lot of HBDers have made hop teas, maybe to add hop character to a beer
needing it, or as an alternative to dryhopping. These instructions are aimed
at giving us a feel for what hops contribute to beer without the contributions
from malt and yeast to cloud matters.

So what is needed to make this tea? A quart mason jar for each
variety, a scale capable of measuring grams (or fractions of an ounce), a
sauce pan, brewing water (ie what you use for brewing), a liquid measuring
cup, and hops. For consistency, volumes of water and masses of hops should be
the same for each batch. This also allows you to compare different lots of
the same variety (ie 92 vs 93 crop).

Measure 4 cups of water into the sauce pan and mark the level on the pan.
Bring to a boil and boil for 5 mins. to drive off dissolved O2 and other
junk. Add 2 g. of hops to the boiling water, stir, and turn off the heat.
Steep for 5 min., add water to get back to your starting volume, and pour
gently into a mason jar, straining out the hops as best you can (a hop bag
helps immensely). Cap the jar and cool. Repeat for each variety. The steeping
time can be varied, or the hops can be boiled for varying lengths of time to
mimic different hop additions to the kettle. Experiment and keep notes!

This should give you a good start. I think you will be surprised at how much
you can tell from a hop tea. Add a little honey and vodka and we might have
something that could compete with Zima :-0



Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 16:47 EST
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fermenting in plastic

Derek Sheehan
> 2. What is the crime for fermenting in plastic buckets?

Scratches in the plastic are great places for bacteria to hide
so extra care must be used in cleaning.


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 15:43 CST
From: [email protected]
Subject: Flakey (stretchy) substance in bottles/Bumpy O2-absorbing caps

David writes:
>I have a question concerning contamination. My first couple of
>batches, when bottled for a period of week _seemed_ to develop
>a very small amount of flakey-like substance at the surface level
>inside the bottle.

Did you prime with Malt Extract? Did you force-chill it before adding
to the bottling vessel? If your answers are "Yes" and "No" then I
suspect that the flakey substance (which stretches a bit when you tilt
the bottle) is protein. The solution is to either force-chill the
priming solution or to switch to corn sugar for priming. I chose the
latter and the problem went away.

The funky aftertaste could be an infection or could be from stale

Tim writes:
>One thing I have noticed about the caps is that after I have used them,
>the gray sealing has small bumps. I always assumed that this was an
>indication of their activation. I would guess that if you look at the
>inside of the cap and the plastic lining was smooth, then the cap is
>still good.

I don't think that's right. I've noticed that, in brand new, just
received from the manufacturer, PureSeal caps (aka SmartCaps) some
have bumps, others don't. I seem to have misplaced the phone number
of the engineering company that designed the material, but when I find
it, I'll call and ask.



Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 15:00:21 MST
From: Eriks Ziemelis
Subject: Cooking vs Rocket Science

In HBD #1357, Jeff Benjamin wrote:
> Procedures could be
> simplified (like my first all-grain batch!). In fact, how many times
> have you seen people post "I've read Papazian, Miller, et al and am
> still confused"?

Not having followed this thread too closely, but, surprisingly, the
latest Miller book, _Brewing The World's Greatest Beers_, gets closer
to the cookbook/newbie method wrt partial mashing.

A couple of weeks ago, I tried my first partial mash and was shocked in
that Miller's method was basically "dump into pot, hold at 150-155 for X
amount of time, sparge". Papazian, on the other hand, got heavy into pH,
water, "hold at 138 for 30 minute, bring up to 150, hold for X". A complete
reverse from what I'm used to seeing from these two authors.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eriks A. Ziemelis | E-mail: [email protected]
CAE Application Software | Phone: (303) 673-7125
Storage Technology Corp. | Fax: (303) 673-3353
2270 S. 88th St. |
Louisville, CO 80028-5202 |
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 14:05:30 PST
From: [email protected] (Steven Kurtz)
Subject: Brews in plastic bottles

Hey Derek,

Thanks for the hot tip about "The Brewers Digest."

Regarding your question about plastic bottles. On my first batch
of homebrew last fall, I thought I'd try putting a portion of my
brew in a 2-liter coke bottle. It came out fine. My friends and
I conducted an extensive taste test (hic!) and detected no
difference in the taste of the brew from the glass bottles and the
brew from the plastic 2-liter. The 2-liters are food grade plastic
and the only problem I see with using them is the social stigma
attached to anything that isn't glass. I guess what I'm saying
is that the people I've talked to just think they're tacky.
Please don't call the fashion police on me, I'm new here on the
brew scene.

Steven Kurtz
[email protected]

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1358, 02/25/94


  3 Responses to “Category : Various Text files
Archive   : HBD135Z.ZIP
Filename : HBD1358

  1. Very nice! Thank you for this wonderful archive. I wonder why I found it only now. Long live the BBS file archives!

  2. This is so awesome! ๐Ÿ˜€ I’d be cool if you could download an entire archive of this at once, though.

  3. But one thing that puzzles me is the “mtswslnkmcjklsdlsbdmMICROSOFT” string. There is an article about it here. It is definitely worth a read: