Category : Various Text files
Archive   : HBD131X.ZIP
Filename : HBD1310

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Date: Wednesday, 29 December 1993 03:00 est
From: homebrew-request at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM (Verify address before sending)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1310 (December 29, 1993)
To: homebrew at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM
Errors-To: [email protected]
Precedence: bulk

HOMEBREW Digest #1310 Wed 29 December 1993

Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

dishwashers (George Tempel)
requestinfo%[email protected] ("LT Brian McKinnon")
SS Screen (Jack Schmidling)
sparge and extraction rate (Chuck Mryglot X6024)
Maui brewpubs? (Domenick Venezia)
re: Cherry handling (Dick Dunn)
Re: Koch/etc (Spencer.W.Thomas)
Specialty Malts at Mashout / Smooth Operator (npyle)
"Returnable" Bottles (Stephen P Klump)
Corning Phone Number (J. Fingerle)
In search of Microbreweries ("Freeman William ")
full volume boils? (George Tempel)
SS Keg to boiling pot QUESTION (Eugene Zimmerman)
chiller efficiencies ad nauseum (John Edens)
Finally back again! (smtplink!guym)
terminal gravity (Jonathan G Knight)
(Fwd) re: Question about bottles (Art Steinmetz)
RE:Dishwasher Bottles (Timothy Sixberry)
Diluting beer (Ari Jarmala)
PH Meters and Water (Tom Clifton)
Celis White Clone Recipe (Tony Storz)

Send articles for __publication_only__ to [email protected]
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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 09:15:01 +0000 (U)
From: George Tempel
Subject: dishwashers

>Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 12:38:57 -0500
>From: [email protected]
>Subject: Dishwasher Bottles
> Hello,
> I have been wondering if it would be acceptable to use my dishwasher
>to setrilize my bottles. I have been bringing them into work, and using
>the autoclave in the laboratory to do this. I know the dishwasher
>is not nearly as good as the autoclave, but I need to know if it is
>good enough. If anyone has any positive or negitive experiences about using
>a dishwasher to sterilize their bottles please reply to:
>[email protected]
> Thanks,
> Bruce

I have been using our dishwasher at home now for several batches.
I usually set it for PotScrubber setting (double duty), and
heated drying, with NO rinse agent.

Rinse agents do leave stuff on the glass that will kill the head
of your beer. Also, make sure the labels are off before loading
into the dishwasher because they may clog the screen at the
bottom. We had a label sneak past us and, although it came off
the bottle just fine (no residue), it wrapped itself over the
heating element in the dishwasher and started to smoulder.

hope this helps



Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 09:24:54 -0600
From: "LT Brian McKinnon"
Subject: requestinfo%[email protected]


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 09:46 CST
From: [email protected] (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: SS Screen

>From: [email protected] (Joel Birkeland)

>The only reason I can imagine using slotted Cu pipe instead of SS screen is
the limited availability of the latter. I bought my 1st easymasher from
Jack, and then made two more myself. I was lucky enough to find a large
piece of SS screen in a dumpster behind a machine shop. (I am not too proud
to look zinto dumpsters.)

I wish I could credit the source of this idea but a universally available
source of ss screen is almost as handy as a dumpster.

Most kitchen strainers are made of stainless and contain more than enough
mesh for several easymashers.



Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 10:33:51 EST
From: [email protected] (Chuck Mryglot X6024)
Subject: sparge and extraction rate

I have some questions about sparging and extraction rates on which I
appreciate your wisdom.

First, I mash in a picnic cooler with a manifold pipe arrangement on
the bottom. I single or double step mash. I achieve a step mash by adding
boiling water to increase temperature. I finally add all of the sparge
water to the cooler (I guess that this is called batch sparging), stir and
let everything settle. Finally, I open the drain plug and start filling
the boiler (I usually recirc the first bit for clarity). This takes 15 -
20 mins.

Now, - I usually get 20 - 25 pts/lb/gal.

- Is there a relationship between sparge rate and extraction?

- Is my process all screwed up?

- Does any one else use a similar setup and get similar or better

- Does any one get 30 - 35 pts/lb/gal?

Thanks in advance.


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 07:47:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia
Subject: Maui brewpubs?

Unfortunately I am headed to Maui for 16 days soon, ;-), and
remember from previous trips a paltry lack of microbrews and brewpubs.
Have things changed in the last few years? I'd appreciate hearing of
establishments with microbrews and brewpubs anywhere on the island.

Also, there is a chance I'll end my stay on the Big Island (Hawaii)
so the same info would be appreciated there.

Lastly, if you are attending HICCS let me know and we'll get together.

Aloha, hang loose,

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
[email protected]


Date: 28 Dec 93 09:38:08 MST (Tue)
From: [email protected] (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: Cherry handling

[email protected] (Chuck Wettergreen) writes:
> And Richard Childers replied:
> RC> The idea of rinsing fruit in a bleach solution, no matter how weak,
> > sounds unwise...
> I think I'd use some Campden tablets, one or two per gallon of water
> that the fruit is washed in. Soak one or two hours then rinse...

Yes, bleach is a bad idea; a solution weak enough not to cause problems
later (either killing the good yeast or creating an off-character) isn't
going to be strong enough to do much good. The problem is that it's going
to be hard to get rid of the bleach once you get it in with the fruit.

Campden tablets will work, but one per gallon is plenty.

> RC> ...And, of course, dropping tenderized fruit into a
> > boiling liquid solution is regarded as suitable for any serious
> > sanitation, or at least, a solution over 170 Fahrenheit.

Yes, this is enough to kill wild yeast, and the acid in the fruit will keep
the other critters that annoy us (the common bacteria) at bay.

> I don't think I'd do that. I have done in the past, and most of the
> cherry aroma and taste seemed to disappear into that hot wort, never to
> be seen again.

Hmmm...I've done it and I haven't had problems with losing the cherry
character. It's hard to argue with experience on either side, I guess.
I've just poured the hot wort over the cherries and immediately cooled the
whole mess.

I do chop the cherries a bit; I don't just use whole pitted cherries.
Could that be why my heat treatment works and yours doesn't? I dunno...

A good test of how well you're extracting fruit flavor into the beer seems
to be that you see the fruit floating in the fermenter getting very pale.

> If you have a food processor, the steel blade, lightly pulsed, will
> macerate the fruit better than you could do with a meat tenderizing
> hammer (without the splash too).

"macerate" surely isn't what you mean...perhaps "chop"? ;-)

My experience says you want it chopped fairly coarse--as you say, lightly
pulsed, and only a few pulses per load through the food processor.

Chopping too finely doesn't improve the extraction of fruit character, but
it definitely exacerbates problems at racking...the more pulp you create,
the more it clogs everything.
Dick Dunn [email protected] -or- raven!rcd Boulder, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 12:15:08 EST
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Koch/etc

Jim Busch writes:
> If the big boys ever wake up, it could be tough for some of the
> Koch's out there.

I was thinking about this late last night as I was wondering the
aisles of the supermarket (love those 24-hour stores!) I stopped in
front of the beer display -- the standard imports, Frankenmuth (local,
more or less), mostly BudMillCoors. Hmm... Michael O'Shea's Amber...
Not bad, certainly more flavor than the standard American swill,
produced by Genesee, one of the few surviving regional breweries.
Also, the Miller's "reserve" line. Hmm... thinks I, if the big guys
decide to go into the "micro" market, they've already got the
distribution channels, and the capacity... Could do it pretty
quickly... The bean-counters have to be convinced there's a market,
that's all.

Look at Coors. Winterfest is a reasonable Continental Dark (we scored
it high 30s in a blind tasting, as I recall). They're supposedly
coming out with a Stout real soon, now, too. Miller's got their
Reserve line (not to mention "Leinies"). It's happening, and it's
happening because of us (homebrewers)!



Date: Mon, 27 Dec 93 17:01:56 MST
From: [email protected]
Subject: Specialty Malts at Mashout / Smooth Operator

Andy Kligerman writes:

>While reading the moast recent HBD, I raree thought came to me! When
I do an all grain breew, I add the crystal malts and carapils in with
the rest of the grain at the start of the mash. Since the other grains
are enzyme rich, am I defeating the purpose of these malts when trying
to achieve I high malt, full bodied beer? Should I add these at the mash out?

You've hit one of the highly debatable areas of homebrewing. I put crystal
malt in at mashout (I don't know about carapils, haven't used it). I do this
because I figure I don't want the enzymes to do any work on the sugars in it,
and because it has already undergone a mash within the husk. I also save off
dark grains (choco and black) for mashout because I feel I get smoother flavors
from them this way. Of course, as I said in an earlier post, my dark beers
need some help, so I'm no authority on this one. I posted a few weeks ago on
an article in Zymurgy (by Micah Millspaw and Bob Jones) I read on this subject.
Well, the article was on beer stability, but it had some references to this.
It was in the same issue as Dr. Fix's HSA article. Check it out.


I've just now finished making a batch of brown ale based on my best pale ale
recipe. I substituted 1 lb. of Belgian Special B 200L Crystal malt for the
light crystal I usually use in the recipe. That Special B is special stuff,
wonderful taste and aroma. I'll never use American chocolate malt again as
long as I can buy the SB. It adds sweetness and maltiness that plain old choco
malt can't touch. This beer really worked out well for hitting temperatures
without adjusting anything, and I had no problems at all with my newly-built
hop back. Whirlpooling helped keep the hops (pellets in the boil) from getting
sucked out the drain. This was the smoothest (in terms of the procedure)
all-grain beer I've made. I'll report later on how the beer comes out.



Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 12:47:53 EST
From: Stephen P Klump
Subject: "Returnable" Bottles

Hello Fellow Homebrewers!

Mark Perkins asked about bottles to be used with homebrewing:

This subject causes undue stress and controversy with many
homebrewers....with good reason.
No one, I repeat, NO ONE wants to fill a bottle of their finest,
only to have it crack or chip on capping, or explode due to thin
walls of glass.

Let me tell you of my experiences:

Bar bottles are excellent for homebrewing
They have thicker glass than the "no refill"
types of bottles (Sam Adams etc)
One drawback, is that the lables are tough to remove compared
to the "no refill" variety.

Grolsch bottles are easier to use (and bigger) with the
rubber gasket for "capping"

I have used "no refill" bottles with smooth lipped top
with no problems. (knock on an oak keg for luck)
They do have thinner walls of glass, but so far, no
cracks, explosions, chips etc....
(there was one batch which exploded a returnable and a
"no refill" due to overcarbonation- but since it was
very overcarbonated, and a returnable blew as well,
I am not going to give up on them...)

No refill bottles used: Anchor, Sam Adams, FX Matt, Heinekin,
Grolsch (12oz), etc.

There are several types of "screw cap" bottles which I have
recapped and have had no cracks, chips, leakage, etc..
Sierra Nevada bottles have a very thick rim..for your own refernce,
compare one to a Pete's Wicked Ale bottle top. Pete's is noticeably
Types of "screw cap" used: Sierra Nevada, Rolling Rock, Molson.

I did not come across the use of screw cap bottles by accident, I used to
go to Canada to buy a case or two of Molson Golden. These bottles were
returnable, and screw-cap as well. After some tests with diet-Choke
left over from a party, it was determined that recapped bottles would
hold carbonation, and the use of these in homebrewing began....

I hate to sound like JS or JdeC when I say that I have had no problems
with recapping returnable, no refill, or some screw-cap...maybe it is
the spirit or St Gambrinus smiling on my efforts.. :) But with the exception
of the two bottles from a very overcarbonated batch, I have had great luck.

I hope my 2 cents helps.

Chemist for Hire | Decadence requires application!
Will Recrystalize for Food! | -R J Green
****************************| The average dog is nicer than
[email protected] | the average person. -A Rooney


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 13:01:58 EST
From: [email protected] (J. Fingerle)
Subject: Corning Phone Number

Some time in the last few months, someon
e posted a 1-800 number for Corning/Revere Ware.
If that was anyone reading this, could you please
send me that number, and/or post it again to the

Thanks. Jimmy


Date: 28 Dec 93 17:58:18 UT
From: "Freeman William "
Subject: In search of Microbreweries

I live in New England and I'm looking into setting up some trips for friends to
a few microbreweries in the North East. Please e-mail me any helpful
information...names, locations, phone (if known), and beer rating on a scale of
1-10 of local micorbreweries. If anyone knows of a listing of microbreweries in
the US, I would greatly appriate any information to help me find it.

Thank You
Bill Freeman


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 15:24:12 +0000 (U)
From: George Tempel
Subject: full volume boils?

full volume boils?
I have been making extract/grain batches, including one with a
rather rough mini-mash, and am looking into moving to a full
volume boil in preparation for all grain recipes.

My question is this: how _does_ one get all that water boiling
in a single lifetime? I haven't had much trouble getting 2 or 2.5
gals boiling on my stove (it's electric...old house w/no gas),
and can keep a nice steady temperature too.

I understand that one shouldn't use the cajun cooker things indoors
for lack of oxygen, but I'd like to hear from the 'net experiences.

thanks in advance



Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 14:39:27 -0700
From: [email protected] (Eugene Zimmerman)
Subject: SS Keg to boiling pot QUESTION

I had to unsubscribe to the HBD for the last semester as I took 18
credits and had to work 30 hrs a week. I also only managed one brew in
the last few months. Well that's all done with and now I'm back (this has
digest has gotten so large no missed me I'm sure). Anyway, I'm tring to
catch up on back issues and am looking specifically for some help.
I was lucky enough to come across an 8 gal. SS keg! I got the thing and
now need some expert advice on how to convert it to a brew pot. I'm
going to cut the top off and then put a valve twards the bottom on the side.
This thing has a 3 inch bung hole in the side and I obviously want it
plugged. I remember people talking about being careful not to use the
wrong kind of welding what ever so as not to poison one's self with heavy
metals. Where are the specifics on this? I can't seem to find anything now...
Thanks for _any_ advice or pointers anyone might give me!

Gene in Laramie


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 11:48:22 -0600 (CST)
From: John Edens
Subject: chiller efficiencies ad nauseum

Perhaps because I live in wet, humid, Houston, I am missing the
significance of the immersion chiller. counterflow chiller debate.

I see a lot of equations and design theory being tossed around and my
gut reaction is: So what? I probably use more water taking a shower than I
do chilling my beer. And I only use water out of the cold water tap for the
beer, which means there is no heating costs involved. If the purpose is to get
a quicker chill, then I can understand that, but one should be able to
acheive that by pushing water as quickly as possible through a coil that
as much surface area as possible in contact with the hot wort.

Or is this a case of overdesign for the sake of overdesign?



Date: Thu, 23 Dec 93 11:16:45 MDT
From: [email protected]
Subject: Finally back again!

Hello all,

I got my first hot-off-the-presses HBD (#1305) in 10 months today
(thanks Jeff Herring) and boy did I need the fix! I saw a number of
familiar names and a lot of new ones as well. To keep this brewing
related, I am finding a considerably better selection of micros and
imported beers in Orlando that we had in Huntsville, AL. I travel
quite a bit now too and have the opportunity to sample the local beer
scene in a number of areas. Anyway, its great to be back (I just sent
Rob a request to re-subscribe me) and here's to you all.

Hoppy Holidays!

Guy McConnell -- [email protected] -- Exabyte Corporation -- Orlando, FL


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 16:05:33 -0500 (cdt)
From: Jonathan G Knight
Subject: terminal gravity

I seem to have chronically high terminal gravities, usually around the low-to-
mid teens. I am pondering in which order to address possible deficiencies in
my process. Currently, I am an extract & specialty grain brewer (1 partial-
mash to date) using Wyeast liquid cultures via starter solutions.

1) Yeast population/health. Possible courses of action include increasing
the amount of pitchable yeast by either feeding them MORE malt, or using a
two-step starter; being very careful about brewing when the yeast is really
ready (RIGHT after the starter has fermented out?); trying "yeast nutrient"
in the starter.

2) Aeration. Probably the easiest thing for me to try would be to make one
of those "carburetors" that has been mentioned here by drilling little teeny
holes in a piece of rigid plastic tubing to squirt into the carboy.

3) Water chemistry. I have no idea what is or is not in my water; can water
chemistry affect the "endurance" of the yeast?

A related issue might be raised wrt specialty grains. I'm used to getting
starting gravities around 1040-1042 from six pounds of extract syrup. If I
steep .75-1 lb. of crystal, patent, or whatever, and end up with an O.G. of
1048 (yes, this happened recently), then can I safely assume that the extra
gravity points are "unfermentables" and will also show up in the final
gravity (1016 or so instead of 1010)? The recent thread on extract
potentials of grains got me wondering about this.

The collective wisdom of the digest is eagerly anticipated.

Jonathan Knight
Grinnell, Iowa


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 18:23:41 EST
From: [email protected] (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: (Fwd) re: Question about bottles

Mark Perkins writes:

My question is about what bottles to use. The only definitive
statement I've seen is to use "returnable" bottles. Since
virtually all bottles in New York State (where I live) are
returnable by law, I need a little help making the

- ----

Use "refillable" bottles. These are thick-walled brown
longnecks. Bud still makes 'em I believe. There is a 5 cent
deposit on the bottles and a <$1.00 deposit on the heavy
not-corrugated cardboard flip-top case. Go to a bar that sells
Bud longnecks and ask to buy the empties.


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 15:40:00 PST
From: Timothy Sixberry
Subject: RE:Dishwasher Bottles

Hi Bruce,
The use of a dishwasher to sterilize bottles probably depends on a few
-How hot is your hot water heater set for?
-Does your dishwasher have a heat dry system?(most do)
-How dirty are the bottles?
-How clean is it?
I have used my dishwasher to sterilize bottles many times with no problems,
and I'm pretty sure yours will work to. What I do with my bottles is to
make sure they are rinsed well right after use, then let them drain and dry
out compleetly. I prepare the dishwasher by running it through one rinse
cycle with a little bleach or idopher to stearlize and get rid of any food
particles. Also check the drain screen for food too. Then just put as many
bottles in as you can. Mouth down of coarse. Put a little idopher (not
bleach) in and let er go. Make sure the heater is on, I havn't tried it
with just hot water.

ps- I have kegs now, and let me just say.

Its the only way to fly! Good luck man!


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 22:03:00 +0200
From: [email protected] (Ari Jarmala)
Subject: Diluting beer

Subject: Addition of water at time of bottling

Timothy R. Peters wrote about adding water to already fermented
beer to dilute it and to increase the volume at the time of

I have done this frequently with my all-grain batches. It's usual
that I brew a 40 l batch of say 4,5 % alcohol by weight beer and
bottle 72 bottles of it (=24 l). The remaining 16 l I dilute with
8 l of cold tap water (the water is excellent here) to make 24 l
(=72 bottles) of 3,0 % abw beer. Of course, this diluted beer has
less body, alcohol, maltiness, bitterness and hop aroma than the
original brew. But it's supposed to be so, I want it that way.

I haven't encountered any problems with this procedure so far and
I've been doing it for more than 10 years now. However there are a
couple of crucial topics:

a) Be sure that the water you dilute the beer with is suitable. It
must not be contaminated with nasty microbes and it's chemical
composition should be good enough. It may be wise to boil the
water for 30 minutes and cool it down before you add it to your

b) Carefully calculate the amount of priming sugar.

-Ari J{rm{l{


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 23:43 EST
From: Tom Clifton <[email protected]>
Subject: PH Meters and Water

Tried to email a reply directly but got the following message:

Your message 92931229014129/0002419419NA4EM of Tue Dec 28, 1993 8:41 pm EST
could not be delivered to:

TO: Steven Smith
MBX: [email protected]>

as the receiving mail system rejected the delivery for the following reason:

Unable to parse address

- ------------------------
Forwarded Message 1
Date: Tue Dec 28, 1993 7:41 pm CST
From: Tom Clifton / MCI ID: 241-9419

TO: Steven Smith
EMS: INTERNET / MCI ID: 376-5414
MBX: [email protected]>
Subject: Water question [HBD #1309]
Message-Id: 92931229014129/0002419419NA4EM

Since the tap water here in the Phoenix area is so "interesting" - PH about
8.0, very hard, Ca, Fe, Mg, Benzene, TCE
^^^^^^^ ^^^
ACK! Phoee!

You can get rid of the PH problem by boiling your water with gypsum. I think
this may also reduce the magnesium (Mg) some which can help with the bitterness
in your Black beers. If you are doing all grain, the high PH is definantly a
problem as it causes excessive exraction of tannins from the grain husks.

Digital PH meters are reasonably inexpensive. Brewers Resource in Woodland
Hills, CA (1-800-827-3983 for orders, 1-818-887-3282 for info) has one for $35
that isn't temperature compensated. My local supply shop (St. Louis Wine &
Beermaking) has that one and also has one that is temp compensated for $80. You
can reach Roy or Koelle Parris at 1-314-230-8277 next week as they are closed
between Christmas and New Years day to be with family.

- ---------------------------------
End forwarded message


Date: Tue, 28 Dec 93 17:07:00 -0600
From: [email protected] (Tony Storz)
Subject: Celis White Clone Recipe

Date: 12-28-93 (17:47)
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Subj: Celis White Clone Recipe
Read: (N/A) Status: RECEIVER ONLY (Echo)
Conf: InterNet_Mail (1) Read Type: GENERAL (+)

Recently there was a request for a Celis White Clone recipe. Here is a
recipe that I came up with and uploaded to Compuserve in early November.
Thanks to Steve Daniel and Steve Moore from the Home Brew University
BBS (713-923-6418) and my electronic friends on Compuserve who helped
steer me in the right direction by giving me a starting point.

Pugsley's Pseudo Celis White #5

malt: 4.5 lbs. 6 row (or 2 row)
specialty: 4.0 lbs. Unmalted Wheat (Bulgar from Health Food Store)
4 grams dried orange peel
4 grams crushed corriander seeds
1 tsp. Alpha-Amalase enzyme
lactic acid
hops: 1 oz. Hallertauer
yeast: 1 pack Wyeast #3056 Bavarian Wheat
optional: 1 tsp. gypsum

OG 1.041 FG 1.011

Bring 2 gallons water to boil. Add unmalted wheat and hold at 185-195
degrees for 20 minutes. Add cold water and 6 row malt to bring down to
130 degrees. Add 1 tsp. amalase and gypsum (pH 5.3). Allow protein
rest for 25 minutes. Raise temperature to 150 degrees and hold 20
minutes. Complete conversion by raising temperature to 158 degrees and
holding for 20 minutes. Mashout at 168 degrees for 5 minutes. Acidify
sparge water to pH 5.7 with lactic acid. Sparge with 4-5 gallons of
170-180 degree water. Boil wort for 90 minutes. Add hops and crushed
spices 15 minutes before end of boil. Cool wort and pitch yeast.

While this will not fool everyone into thinking that this is the real Celis
White, I was very happy with the outcome. The spices are "up front"
without being overpowering. However, some people like a wallop from the
spices and you will need to experiment with the spice amounts.

After a couple months the spices have faded a bit, so next time I will
double the spices and probably try Wyeast White beer yeast.

This recipe should give you a good starting point with which to
experiment. If anyone else has a recipe for a Celis White clone, or have
any comments or questions on my recipe, please feel free to E-mail me or

Tony Storz (Houston)


End of HOMEBREW Digest #1310, 12/29/93


  3 Responses to “Category : Various Text files
Archive   : HBD131X.ZIP
Filename : HBD1310

  1. Very nice! Thank you for this wonderful archive. I wonder why I found it only now. Long live the BBS file archives!

  2. This is so awesome! 😀 I’d be cool if you could download an entire archive of this at once, though.

  3. But one thing that puzzles me is the “mtswslnkmcjklsdlsbdmMICROSOFT” string. There is an article about it here. It is definitely worth a read: