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Contents of the HBD1060.TXT file

HOMEBREW Digest #1060 Thu 21 January 1993

Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

Kegging. (Murray Robinson)
sweetness of products in wine/cider/beer (Victor Reijs)
kudos & gripes (Michael T. Lobo)
Re: Phil's Phalse bottom (STROUD)
Re: Trivia (Guy D. McConnell)
Goodies for the TechnoBrewer (Tom Dimock)
Brews Paper / Grain mill rollers (Norm Pyle)
Priming. ("C. Lyons / Raytheon-ADC / Andover, MA")
Answers (Ulick Stafford)
bottle sediment, "partial d (Chris McDermott)
Re: yeast, Windsor Ale; Wyeast lager (CW06GST)
Andre Pruitt 8000 (Kieran O'Connor)
RE: HBD 1059 (James Dipalma)
gone for a brew (Charlie Papazian/Boulder)
Did tin do me in? (and ruin my beer?) (Jim Hood)
Beatles Trivia ("Jim Daly, Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, MA")
Re: Trivia (Richard Stueven)
The Cinnamon Stopper, resolved (HOWED)
Trivia/Barleywine Yeast (korz)
Keg questions (Mark Lundquist)
Corona Adjustments, Nitrosamines (Jack Schmidling)
Recipe Request (Kip Damrow)
Refractometers (George J Fix)
Re: Trivia (The Man Who Invented Himself)
shelf-life of grains? (Mark Lundquist)
Priming, CO2, psi, Temp, Kegs. (long) ("Jim Ellingson")
Re: using steel cut oats in stout (David Resch)
No lag in old Wyeast (Rob Bradley)
Mountmellick Famous Irish Stout ("Aaron Frost")
Milk Stout (Gary Cote)

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Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 21:47:16 +1030
From: Murray Robinson
Subject: Kegging.

I've finally gone and bought my self all the bits and pieces
(mostly second hand) I need for a draught beer system. ie:

Cornellius Keg with screw top.
Disconnect fittings
Tap suitable for through fridge wall mounting
Chest freezer.

COST:$135 Australian.

The Gas bottle I rent at $4 per month.

What I now need to know is the correct procedure for using it. This is
what I had in mind so please let me know any problems, improvements, etc
you can think of.

1) Sterilise Keg, fittings, lines, tap etc.

2) Purge keg of all air by sealing the lid, turning gas cylinder on, connecting
the gas line from the gas cylinder and pressurising to 15 psi. Purge CO2/O2 mixture
via the safety valve. Repeat.

3) Turn gas cylinder off and release all pressure in the keg via the safety valve.
Open the lid of the keg, and gently fill the keg with beer to within 2-3 inches of
the top of the keg.

4) Reseal keg, turn gas cylinder on and pressurise to 15 psi. Purge any remaining O2
in the keg using the method described in (2).

5) Pressurise the keg to 25 psi and place in a cold fridge for a day or so.

6) Remove keg from fridge and roll it vigorously to disolve the CO2 into the beer.
Replace keg in the fridge.

7) When ready to serve beer, bleed excess pressure from keg and connect gas line set a
about 7 psi to push beer from the keg.

Any comments?

P.S. I have allready replaced the rubber O Rings and seals on the keg.

Cheers and Beers,



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 13:56:33 +0100
From: Victor Reijs
Subject: sweetness of products in wine/cider/beer

Hello all of you,

I am looking for information on what the perceived sweetness (compared to
sucrose) is for some products which are present in wine/cider (and perhaps also
in beers). I am thinking of products like:
- alcohol (in the range of 4 to 15 % vol.)
- glycerol (in the range of 0 - 20 gr/litre)

I have some ideas about the sweetness of other products (like glucose, lactose and
maltose). Perhaps other people have even more information on other products (not

Because sweetness is not a linair scale, I have putten some info of the
concentrations of the products. So if there is some info about this non-linair
process, I am also very interested.

Hope somebody can help or point me to some articles/papers.

All the best,



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 08:07:45 EST
From: [email protected] (Michael T. Lobo)
Subject: kudos & gripes

First I want to thank Stephen Hansen for the new structure of the HBD archive
structure..very practical & quite easy to use..

On that note, I want to ask that we all get in the habit of being more specific
in our _Subject_ comments. In the archive indexes, this is all we see, and when
the topic is _re:HBD ***_, it makes for a useless entry. I have been guilty of
this in the past, but since using the archives, I see the reason others have
complained in the past.


Michael T. Lobo 508 549 2487
Foxboro Co.
[email protected] "I Love beer, beer loves me; when I drink too much,
my beer speaks for me" -Monty


Date: 20 Jan 1993 08:27:01 -0500 (EST)
From: STROUD%[email protected]
Subject: Re: Phil's Phalse bottom

IN HBD # 1058 I said, in regard to Phil's Phalse Bottom:

>>it certainly is superior to the grain bag/vegetable steamer combo

and Jay Hersh replied:

>My grain bag and copper coil works wonderfully.

Note that I never mentioned a copper coil. I was specifically referring to the
vegetable steamer commonly used by many brewers. This setup requires the use
of a grain bag because the steamer doesn't fit tightly in the bottom of the
cooler. There is also quite a bit of dead space associated with the steamer.

I have looked at your copper coil setup and am sure that it works as well or
better than PPB. However, PPB is an off the shelf item that takes about 2
seconds to install :-), an advantage for some people. I still doubt that you
need to use the grain bag with your setup, though it probably does make cleanup

Steve Stroud


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 8:55:45 CST
From: [email protected] (Guy D. McConnell)
Subject: Re: Trivia

Richard Stueven writes:

>Found this in the 12/15/88 HBD:
>>Date: Thu, 15 Dec 88 12:17:48 MST
>>From: hpfcla!hpcea!hplabs!utah-cs!iwtsf!korz (Algis R Korzonas +1 312 979 8583)
>>Subject: Trivia
>>Trivia question:
>>Which Beatles song refers to homebrewing?
>I searched and searched, but never found the answer!

The only one that leaps to mind is "Rock and Roll Music" with the line
"drinking homebrew from a wooden cup" (a song snippet I occasionally use in my
.sig file) but that is actually a Beatles cover of a *Chuck Berry* song.

- --
Guy McConnell [email protected] or ...uunet!ingr!b11!mspe5!guy
"All I need is a pint a day"


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 10:09:54 EST
From: Tom Dimock
Subject: Goodies for the TechnoBrewer

The January catalog from American Science & Surplus (601 Linden Place,
Evanston, IL 60202) has a couple of goodies which might be useful to
you technically inclined brewers out there. On page 27, they have a
small Bunsen Burner that is jetted for use with propane for $4.75. Just
the thing for flaming those loops, etc. Second, on page 20 they have
0-15 PSI pressure guages for $3.00 each. These should be just the
ticket for use on CO2 lines, counter-pressure bottlers, etc.
I have no connection with AS&S other than as a satisfied customer
etc. blah blah blah. Their catalog is a hoot, and useful stuff can
be found in most copies.


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 07:48:34 MST
From: [email protected] (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Brews Paper / Grain mill rollers

Ulick and Jack commented on the Brews Paper. I think this thing is a piece
of junk. I'm not sure why I received their first issue, but I guess it has
something to do with my subscription to Zymurgy. Anyway, there are soooooo
many typos in the thing, I started to believe they were there on purpose. On
the front cover they have a quote something like: "We ain't too serious".
When I saw it at first I thought it was a good thing. After reading the BP
cover to cover, I decided they need to be a bit more serious. The writing
was at a junior high school conversational level, to boot. If any BP folks
are reading this digest, I suggest you work on issue #2 a little longer
before it goes to press. Sorry for the long tirade but bad "journalism" bugs
me... (On a lighter note, I _did_ enjoy the jokes, etc.)

Roller mill rollers: anyone have any good sources? I have a wonderful
little homemade roller mill, but the rollers are a weak point. One good
suggestion I received was conveyor belt rollers from a junk yard, but I
thought I'd solicit more suggestions here.



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 08:55 EST
From: "C. Lyons / Raytheon-ADC / Andover, MA"
Subject: Priming.

> I've been having difficulty in getting a good head on my beers. I can
> generate a reasonable one by pouring "forcefully" but this tends to make the
> rest of the glass somewhat flat. Is the standard 3/4 cup supposed to be able
> to generate a good head and also preserve good carbonation in what remains?
> One 3 gallon batch I made I inadvertently put in 3/4 cup which translates to
> 1.25 cups for 5 gallons. That batch has PLENTY of head- too much, but it gave
> me the idea of increasing priming. What are thoughts about increasing priming
> to around 1 cup? This should generate plenty of CO2 for head forming, but is
> this heresy?

I too was unhappy with the level of carbonation when using 3/4 cup
of corn sugar for priming. I have experimented with priming and
find that I am most happy when using 1 cup of priming sugar for a
5 gallon batch. I believe this is a matter of taste, I
personally enjoy the carbonation I get from 1 cup, and find 3/4
too little and 1.25 too much.

I have also experimented with the addition of sweet-n'-low during
bottling. I use dry yeasts, and decided to try David Line's
suggestion (p. 21, Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy, "However if
you can only get home brew beer yeasts instead of the recommended
commercial 'Brewer's Yeast' the flavour balance can be acceptably
restored by adding five saccharin tablets"). I have found that 10
packages of sweet-n'definitely adds too much sweetness (more is
not better, in this case). I have also experimented with five
packages of sweet-n'-low and believe this to be my best batch
yet. Many people have enjoyed this ale, and I found that this
batch disappeared quickly (leaving me with three earlier
batches). Even with 5 packages of sweet-n'-low the sweetness
could be lowered slightly. Next I will try 4 packages. Has
anyone else using dry yeasts expermented with artificial
sweetners? If so, I'd be interested in hearing your comments.

Christopher Lyons


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 10:37:35 EST
From: Ulick Stafford
Subject: Answers

In hbd1059 Chris Cooke asks a numer of questions.
re: decoctions, there are several ways to remove thick or thin decoctions.
I personally, use a sieve to remove a thick decoction, and a small pot
as a large ladle to remove thin decoction. I have one comment in
general about dections. I have found that I need much larger decoctions
than Noonan recommends for reaching strike temperatures. This is probably
because I mash in a 7gallon Gott that has a large heat capacity, itself.
I typically in a 2 decoction mash remove a 50% thich decoction to raise from
protein rest to saccarification, and if the strike temperature is
particularily high will usually need to add more boiling water. I may
use 60% for the lauter decoction.

re, burner - if there is soot, the mixture if obviously too rich. Tweak
down your gas flow if you can.

re extraction rates. My last batch was 3lb Munich, 6lb 2-row lager, and
1lb 6row CaraPils. I got 12B in 6+gallons. That is about 29 sg points.
Just a data point.

js praises The Brews Paper. I personally think it is not that great (well OK
for nothing - but personlly I think the $15 annual subscription could be
better spent on Imported hops or something). It should be noted that
js is not an unbiased observer as the publication carries advertisments
for his products. Incidentally, does anyone know who is responsible for
the ads in Zymurgy selling Coronas with the statement that it is better
than the js rollermill (someone in St. Louis)?

re: slow yeast, I have a similar problem (I can't rmember who posted the
note). I pitched a batcj of Vienna lager with a yeast (Wyeast Bavarian)
that I had used several times before and washed in acidified Ammonium
persulphate. I then fermented the sludge out twice with a rather
stodgy 1020 wort prepared from low quality DME, but the second ferment seemed
resonable. I then pitched it into 6 gallons of wort chilled to 40F and
left it for 6 hours at 40F to settle. I then racked off the trub. However,
I am sure I left most of the yeast behind as I doubt if much managed to
get into the wort well at 40F for 6 hours. It is now been 60 hours+ at
around 48-50F, without any real visible fermentation. I am not worried
yet, considering my problem to be mainly due to a low cell count, and
it will eventually hit krausen, but should I be??? Comments.

Ulick Stafford


Date: 20 Jan 1993 10:48:07 -0500
From: Chris McDermott
Subject: bottle sediment, "partial d

bottle sediment, "partial decoction"
Since going all-grain, I've developed a problem with
sedimentation in my bottled beers. The beers are crystal clear, but
have a layer of loosely associated sediment at the bottom that's
about 1cm thick. I don't think that this is yeast, but I'm not
sure what it is. Has anyone experienced the same problem, and if
so what causes it?

I've really enjoyed the recent thread on decoction. Noonan's
book is a great resource, but its self-contradiction disturbs me a
little. So, this additional discussion helps to sooth my nerves a

Anyway, my mashing method, which I dub "partial decoction", is
infusion in a 40 qt. Gott-Mash/Lauter-Tun. Hot water is added to
reach the protein rest temperature. Boiling water is added to reach
the sachrifictation temperature. And then the _thinnest_ 3rd of the
mash is removed, boiled, and returned to reach the mash out
temperature. Is this method standard among a subset of us masher,
or am I and a few others (see Daniel F McConnell's post in
HbD#1059) all alone out there? If there are others, I'd like to
hear about your experiences with this M.O.
"Less talk; more synthale" - Worf from STTNG
Christopher K. McDermott Internet: [email protected]
C.S. Draper Laboratory, Inc. Voice: (617) 258-2362
555 Technology Square FAX: (617) 258-1131
Cambridge, MA 02149 (USA)


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 11:16:27 EST
From: CW06GST
Subject: Re: yeast, Windsor Ale; Wyeast lager

In the last exciting episode of Homebrew Digest (#1059),
Bill Crick mentions Windsor Ale Yeast. Recently, I brewed a
Christmas ale using this yeast with satisfactory results:


1 package WINDSOR ALE YEAST - REHYDRATED (no starter)
(Glo:gg spice is made up of ginger, cinnamon, cardamom and clove.)

Boiled for 30 minutes. Cooled to 70 deg. F. pitched yeast.
Fermentation began within 8 hours. Finished within 3 days.

FG=1.008 (after 2 weeks)

This was a very quick and easy recipe; a real plus around the
holidays. The beer was rather tasty, although the spices were
rather pronounced (covering up any defects if present). The yeast
was very fast and attenuative. I have some more of it, so I'll post
the results of that brew.

Also, in the same episode, Steve Tollesfrud had some trouble with
Wyeast lager yeast. I brewed a batch using the same yeast and had
the same problem. After pitching I put the fermentor in a

refridgerator at about 45 degrees F. I had no action for 4 days
and nothing happened until I warmed the wort to 65 degrees. I
kept it at that temperature until primary fermentation stopped,
and then slowly eased the temperature back down to 45. Racked
to secondary and kept at 45 deg for 1 month. Racked to bottling
bucket, and I am now aging in the bottles at same temperature.

I tasted the beer before bottling and it is quite good.
After bottle conditioning it should be delicious.

Has anyone else had this problem with Wyeast lager?
Marinated minds want to know.

Erik Zenhausern


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 11:23 EDT
From: Kieran O'Connor
Subject: Andre Pruitt 8000

FWIW here's the Andre Pruitt 8000, mashtun and lauter tun set up.

I have finally made an all grain batch and I was trying to make a set
up with a combo lauter and mash tun.

Here's the set up--thanks for the tips from you folks:

Igloo 10 gallon cooler.
Plastic Fermenter
Bottling Spigot

OK--her'es the deal. Origianlly I was oging to hook up a Phil's False
bottom to my cooler and replace the spigot with a 1 inch bottling
bucket valve. My friend, Andre Pruitt, said, forget the false bottom--
use a bottling bucket.

So I drilled a bazillion holes into the bottom of my original plastic
fermenter. I also cut off the first "ring," the first inch or so of
the fermenter.

The I drilled a bazillion holes in the lid also.

Andre drilled the spigot hole to 1 inch--but be careful--dont just use
a wood bit--use the kind which drills a pilot hole first, and put
osmething inside the cooler so the drill wont shake while you drill.

Now--to the brewing:

Put the fermenter into the cooler, and put the grain inside. Mash in.
Then let it mash for the time specified. To sparge, we put the lid
on top of the fermenter and sparged through the holes. I'm going to
cut the lid so that it will sit right on top of the grain.

You can alter the speed of the sparge with the bottling bucket valve--
so it was quite nice.

Over the mash--it lost 2 degrees in 50 minutes.

At the end, pull out the bucket, put it into another, and then you
dump the grain!

Volia, the Andre Pruitt 8000 Mash/Lauter Tun.

Comments welcome--suggestions too!

Kieran O'Connor

E-Mail Addresses:

Bitnet: oconnor@snycorva
Internet: [email protected]


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 11:30:43 EST
From: [email protected] (James Dipalma)
Subject: RE: HBD 1059

Hi All,

In HBD #1059, Chris Cook asks:

>All right, I have a few quick questions. Or maybe not so quick...

> 1) In Greg Noonan's book "Brewing Lager Beer," he describes decoction
> mashes using phrases like "...draw off the thickest third of the
> mash..." Look, after all the stirring he describes, isn't the mash
> pretty uniform? Could someone who does this describe what the
> "thickest" or thinnest part is, and how you draw it off?

Decoctions are generally done after some sort of rest, i.e., acid,
protein, or saccharification, so the mash at these points is not uniform.
The thickest part of the mash is the grist, which tends to settle on the
bottom during rests, the thinnest part is the liquid that's atop the grain.
I use an Igloo cooler to hold saccharification rest temperatures. For thick
decoctions, I tip the cooler so the liquid runs to one side, and use a small
saucepan to withdraw the grain from the other side. To achieve mash-out, I
use a thin decoction, scooping the liquid from the top with the same pan.
Not very "high-tech", but effective.


Also in HBD #1059, Steven Tollefsrud asks:

>I recently experimented with adding refined table sugar to a lager batch
>(approximately 70% malt extract to 30% sugar) to see how it would affect
>the taste. The result was lighter bodied, well carbonated, with an
>unpleasant cidery aftertaste. Now I want to avoid using sugar at all,
>even for priming. In order to make a completely sugar free, all malt
>lager, I would like to try priming with dried malt extract. Should I
>use the same quantites of malt extract as I would with sugar? One homebrew
>guide I have says to prime until the specific gravity increases by .005.
>Won't it be necessary to use more dried malt extract because of the

Yes, I've used 1 to 1 1/4 cups of dried malt extract to prime a 5
gallon batch versus 3/4 cup of corn sugar. It will also take a week or
so longer to achieve good carbonation.


Also in HBD #1059, John of the odd looking Bitnet address asks:

>I used Wyeast liquid lager (pilsen), and all was going gang-
>busters within 12 hrs of bursting the inside package of the yeast packet
>It had swelled almost to the point of bursting itself. I made a
>batch of starter that night, and watched as that too grew vigorously -
>the smell was (for brewers anyway) heavenly! Then, after brewing the
>wort according to the recipe, I cooled the brew and pitched the yeast.

>That was almost two days ago, and as yet, there seems to be no action
>through the blow off tube...Not even a kreusen yet. However, the beer
>does seem to be clearing (is it settling too soon?).

>So my question(s) is/are: is it too soon to tell if the brew is stuck?
>And, if it is stuck, how can I nudge it along? Could the temperature
>be responsible for the (apparently) slow start? If so, should I try
>closing the window, opening the door, and warming the pantry/
>lagering closet up a bit??

I've experienced fairly long lag times, on the order of 24-30 hours,
when using liquid lager yeast, and pitching when the wort had cooled
to ~50F. I've managed to cut this down to 12-18 hours by pitching
when the wort is slightly warmer, ~60F, pitching a somewhat larger volume
of starter than for ales, and leaving the primary fermenter in a warmer
place until signs of fermentation are evident.
I'd say that 47F is a bit too cool for the yeast to get started. Try
moving the fermenter to a warmer room, or closing the window. When
fermentation starts, re-open the window, but try to avoid sudden, drastic
temperature swings. Also, if you decide to pitch your next batch at a
higher temperature, be aware that you'll get a bit more diacetyl in
exchange for the faster start. Not a major problem, I've managed to
deal with it by utilizing a diacetyl rest.



Date: 20 Jan 93 11:58:48 EST
From: Charlie Papazian/Boulder <[email protected]>
Subject: gone for a brew

Thanks all for sending me notes regarding zymurgy and my new book. All
comments have been very helpful. This note is to let you all know that I'll be
on vacation and far far from even thinking about getting on a computer. I'll
be not checking my e-mail after Thursday a.m., Jan 21 until mid February when I
catch up with all the piles of stuff awaiting me upon return (vacations are
like that). If you wish to e-mail the American Homebrewers Association or any
other of the Association of Brewers Divisions please e-mail James Spence at
Compuserve: 70740,1107. Thanks.

Charlie P.


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 12:25:26 -0500
From: [email protected] (Jim Hood)
Subject: Did tin do me in? (and ruin my beer?)

My first attempt at all-grain (10th batch overall) produced my first
throw-away batch. There are no visible signs of infection, though
no doubt there are bacteria which are more subtle about their presence.
The beer looks and smells fine. It has a terribly bitter, almost
metallic (though not all tasters agree with this description) aftertaste.
One person commented "It's like you overhopped by an order of
magnitude." I didn't.

The recipe was Tony B.'s version of SNPA, which he posted late last
summer. Procedure pretty much ala Miller. Good sanitation observed
(no problems that way from previous extract and partial mash brews).

My nomination for the culprit is my boiler. I obtained one of those
old copper boilers, some folk refer to them as "jam boilers". A lot
of these, I am told, were tin plated on the inside (beats me why).
I'm wondering if the acidic wort reacted with the tin to produce
the bad taste that this batch has. The only reference to tin I
found in Miller who said keep it out.

Of course I'm open to other suggestions, if these kind of boilers
haven't been a problem for other brewers. Also I'm willing to UPS
a bottle to anyone who cares to run a personal diagostic, as long
as you're not too far from Mich. upper peninsula.
- --
Jim Hood
[email protected]


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 09:43:09 PST
From: "Jim Daly, Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, MA"
Subject: Beatles Trivia

>Trivia question:
>Which Beatles song refers to homebrewing?

Rock and Roll Music:

"...They're drinkin' homebrew from a wooden cup, them folks are dancin' and
they're all shook up. They started singin' that rock and roll music, any ol'
way you choose it..."

- -------------------------------------------
Jim Daly
Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, MA
[email protected]
- -------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 09:26:55 PST
From: [email protected] (Kip Damrow)

Hey there,
Does anyone out there have an extract recipe for Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale??
Thanks for your help...



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 09:48:29 -0800
From: Richard Stueven
Subject: Re: Trivia

>>Which Beatles song refers to homebrewing?
>I searched and searched, but never found the answer!

Thanks to Tony Willoughby ([email protected]) and
[email protected] for the answer: "Rock and Roll Music",
which is not strictly a Beatles song at all.

thx for playing


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 12:54 EDT
From: [email protected]
Subject: The Cinnamon Stopper, resolved

A while back, I posted a problem with a batch of cinnamon beer. Since
then I have fiddled around with it a bit, and I seem to have figured out the
problem and how to carbonate the beer.

I reprimed each bottle by hand and recapped them. This has been
effective in carbonating. The best guess that has been made about why it
didn't take the first time was that by adding the cinnamon to the priming sugar
when bulk priming, the cinnamon turned into a syrup which collected the sugar
into a few bottles, thereby turning them into gushers.

Since then, my partner and I have ventured out yet again into new
combinations [for us anyway] and we have made a chocolate wheat beer. A
tasty idea that has definitely panned out well for us.

[email protected]


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 13:42 CST
From: [email protected]
Subject: Trivia/Barleywine Yeast

Gak writes:
>Which Beatles song refers to homebrewing?

Well, it's a bit of a trick question. It's actually a Chuck Berry
song, redone by the Beatles: Rock & Roll Music.

Just so this post is not just trivia...

Steven writes:
>I plan to make a Barleywine soon. I have two recipes. One calls for
>champagne yeast because it will survive above the levels of alcohol
>which would normally kill off regular lager or ale yeasts. The second
>recipe calls for lager yeast?! I am afraid of compromising the taste
>of the "beer" by using champagne yeast (is this a valid concern?).
>On the other hand, I don't want to have a sickly sweet, half fermented
>Barleywine because the alcohol level killed the lager yeast.

If you can get a hold of some relatively fresh Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
or SN Porter or Stout (I'm assuming you can't get Wyeast 1056 in France),
you could culture it and use that exclusively. Chico Brewing Co. uses
this yeast for their Bigfoot Barleywine, so you can too.

Using a beer yeast at first and then a Champagne yeast to finish off
(as Steven later suggests) is a good idea if you can't get the gravity
down with just the beer yeast. Make sure you pitch A LOT of yeast
and AERATE THE WORT VERY WELL, so the yeast has a fighting chance.
I've read that some brewers rouse the yeast on very high gravity beers,
but if you do, you're probably better off doing this in the secondary
so you don't stir up the trub. Also make sure to not aerate the wort
during the rousing -- I just agitate the fermenter, being careful to
not spill the airlock into the fermenter (note this is with glass --
you can forget about trying to not suck air on a plastic fermenter --
it's impossible).



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 11:58:55 -0800
From: [email protected] (Mark Lundquist)
Subject: Keg questions

Thanks to those who responded to my question about how I might make use
of a keg that I "inherited". The keg was one of the new-style
"one-holer" (Sanke?) brewery kegs. The most sensible-sounding suggestion
was that I find a distributor who would be willing to trade me a Golden
Gate keg for my keg. I have some questions:

1) Should I naturally condition my kegged beer, or should I
artificially carbonate? Will there be any difference in the
quality of the finished beer?

2) How do I keg-condition beer? (For bottled beer, I prime with
1 cup DME per 5 gal.)

3) How do I artificially carbonate beer?

4) How long can kegged beer be stored if a CO2 tapper system is used?

5) How can I bottle from a keg?

6) How do I clean my keg? What sanitizing agents can/should I use?

Is there anything else I need to know about filling, storing, serving,
etc. with my keg?



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 09:10 CST
From: [email protected] (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Corona Adjustments, Nitrosamines

>From: "John L. Isenhour"

>The outer grinding plate is held on by a cotter pin, and it is free-floating
(i.e. it wobbles around). This would seem to allow some grain to escape. I'm
wondering if I should try to affix the adjustable plate to the stem in such a
way that it could not wobble and yet maintained a parallel position in respect
to the other plate. Anyone tried this?

Even if you were willing to sacrafice adjustability and welded the assembly
together, you could not avoid the problem you point out. It is the nature of
the beast. You have a four point system with only two "bearings". It relies
on the two faces rubbing agianst each other for alignment. When used as we
use it, it relies on the grain to keep them proplerly spaced. If you keep it
full, it will more or less do this.

What I find helpful is to set the spacing using a .055" gage on each side of
the plate. Dimes are about the right thickenss but a bit hard to work with.
Adjust the pressure so they can just be pulled up and down. This will give
you the nominal spacing used on most rollers mills as a starting point. Note
that this is only true when the mill is full and cranking.

>I'd also like to motorize this operation. Anyone done anything with a pully
or something?

I defer to those who have done this but point out that the "bearings" are
iron against iron and not intended for high speed or rigorous use.

>From: Darryl Richman

>The imported 2 row Munich malt is prepared by heating it briefly while still
moist and then drying it. This produces the most color and malt aroma for
the temperatures.

>Crystal malts are prepared in the same general way, but rather than a
brief heating while moist, the malt undergoes as complete a
saccarification as possible....

I am glad you cleared that one up. It is amazing what threads can follow
from the seemingly innocent use of two words in the same sentence. In this
case Munich and crystal.

I would like to use this opportunity to re-address the nitrosamine issue as
these two malts are produced in exactly the way that produces the maximum
precursors for this potent carcinogen.

Crystal malt is probably the worse of the two because of the time spent in
the hot, moist state but as it is used in only small quantities, it may be
less of a hazzard than Munich which could make up the entire batch.

My advice is, know your maltster and his process. Indirect kilning,
eleviates the nitrosamine problem and I would advise against using malt,
especially crystal and Munich, produced in direct fired kilns.

It can be inferred from their literature that the Munich malt produced by De
Wolf - Cosyns is indirectly kilned. Inferring things from literature can be
dangerous so I ask that Tim Norris or any of the other dealers reading this
make the effort to find out for sure and report back.



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 11:23:57 PST
From: [email protected] (Kip Damrow)
Subject: Recipe Request

Hey there,
Does anyone out there have an extract recipe for Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale ?
Thanks in advance...


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 15:18:04 -0600
From: gjfix@utamat (George J Fix)
Subject: Refractometers

Apparently many people have started using refractometers to measure
gravities because they are simple and very accurate. Isn't it nice
to be able to do these measurements at any temperature and with only a
few drops of wort instead of the contents of an entire hydrometer jar!

One should be aware that the presence of alcohol in fermenting (or
fermented) wort will skew the refractometer reading. Actually the same is
true for hydrometer readings, but this is often overlooked. To get accurate
results from either instrument, one needs to first boil off the alcohol
from a sample and then replace the volume lost with distilled water. The
reading one gets at this point is the real extract (RE), and in degree Balling
(or Plato) is % sugar that is actually there (by wt.). It is different
from the rather artificial number measured by a hydrometer without alcohol
removal. The latter is called the apparent extract (AE), and the relation
between AE and RE has been discussed in this forum. Unfortunately, the
relation between refractometer measurements with and without alcohol
removal is not known to me, and possibly does not exit.

This post does not mean to imply that refractometers are a "must have"
item for homebrewers. There are many leading long and happy lives, and
brewing sensational beer to boot, who are very content with their
hydrometers. My private e-mail, on the other hand, indicates that there
is a nontrivial interest in refractometers. I am often asked about where
one can purchase such an instrument. I am a few years removed from this.
My model comes from Cole-Palmer, but I understand their prices have soared
in recent years. One of course can always count on Fisher Scientific to lead
the league in high prices. If anyone has done a recent search, then a post
on HBD might be helpful. It could be that there is a wide variation in prices
for instruments of comparable quality.

George Fix


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 14:28:05 PST
From: The Man Who Invented Himself
Subject: Re: Trivia

>From: Richard Stueven
>Subject: Re: Trivia
>Found this in the 12/15/88 HBD:
>>Which Beatles song refers to homebrewing?
>I searched and searched, but never found the answer!

I think it was "Spargin' Pepper's Lonely Hops Club Band", wasn't it?

- -- Stewart


Date: 20 Jan 93 20:29:45 GMT
From: [email protected] (Mark Lundquist)
Subject: shelf-life of grains?

How long can uncrushed grain be stored? I have some (specialty malts,
etc.) in sealed plastic bags, and I'd like to know if there's some
point after which I should toss 'em.

- --mark


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 16:54:04 -0600
From: "Jim Ellingson"
Subject: Priming, CO2, psi, Temp, Kegs. (long)

Fellow Brewthren,

I've been watching this psi vs pounds of sugar debate
for a couple of days, hoping it would de-pressurize itself.
Clearly it will not. My apologies for the length of
this post. I normally give wonderful advice }:~) such as
this via private e-mail.

In the archives, there is a chart of volumes of CO2 in beer,
versus temperature and pressure. CO2 pressure is given
along the top of the chart. Temperature is given down
the left side. It makes little sense to discuss pressure
without also giving the temperature.

All other things being equal higher (lower) temperatures
will lead to higher (lower) pressures since the CO2 gas is
more soluble at lower temps. Equally, the vapor pressure of
CO2 is a function of temperature.

In a corner of the chart are the following guidelines for
volumes of CO2 for different styles of beer at whatever
temperature and corresponding pressure (I'm guessing
these are volumes of CO2 at atmospheric pressure.):

Volumes of CO2:
British style beers = 2.0 - 2.4
Most other beers = 2.4 - 2.85
High-carbonation beers = 2.85 - 2.95

That is, if I'm force carbonating, I need to push between
10 and 15 gallons of CO2 gas into my 5 gallons of beer. The
pressure required to do this is a function of temperature.

If I'm using natural carbonation, I need to provide enough
fermentables to generate just over 10 to 15 gallons of CO2 gas
in my 5 gallons of (bottle conditioning) beer. The amount
depends on the style. The amount extra depends on the head
space, but we always want much more beer than headspace.

While the rate at which the yeast will consume the priming
fermentables and carbonate our beer is a function of temp,
the volume in the finished product is not. (Yes, yes, I
know, provided the temp is high enough for the yeast to work
and low enough not to kill the yeast and . . . provieded we
wait long enough).

Let's look at a couple of examples. If our beer is kept at
50^F, then we have the following set of pressures and volumes:

psi CO2 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
volumes 1.98 2.06 2.14 2.21 2.30 2.38 2.45 2.54 2.62 2.70 2.78 2.86 2.94 3.02

If I want 2.7 volumes of CO2 in my pilsner,
I set the regulator to 20 psi. If I want 2.3 volumes of
CO2 in my porter, the regulator should be set to 15 psi.
While this chart does give equilibrium values, it says nothing
about how long it would take for 2+ volumes of CO2 to find
its way into the beer. (This is where higher pressures
and/or shaking the keg come into play.)

If we are priming, things get more complicated. Being very simple
about it, a given volume of priming sugar/extract/gyle should yield
a known amount of fermentables. For a given amount of fermentables,
we can expect the creation of a known volume of CO2. (Let's keep the
yeast attenuation, time to full condition, alcohol toxicity and any
other favorite nits hidden for the time being)

Going back to the chart, and keeping our beer at 50^F. If
priming with 1/3 cup of dextrose yields 11 psi (1.98 volumes),
then priming with 1/2 cup of dextrose should yield 23-24 psi
(2.94-3.02 volumes) in our keg.

I hope this helps. Sorry about the length.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Jim Ellingson [email protected] *
* AHPCRC/University of Minnesota tel 612/626-8088 *
* 1100 Washington Ave. S., Minneapolis, MN 55415 fax 612/626-1596 *


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 17:05:56 MST
From: [email protected] (David Resch)
Subject: Re: using steel cut oats in stout

>I'd like to hear any experiences with using steel cut oats in an
>all-grain brew -- whether you cooked or not, how much you used,
>how the beer turned out, etc.

Hi Brian,

I've made at least 2 batches of Oatmeal Stout using steel cut oats. I
believe that I used on the order of 2 pounds for a 13 gallon batch, but
I don't have my recipes here at work and so am not sure what percent of
the grain bill the oats were, but it was less than 10%.

I gelatinized the oats prior to adding them to the mash. The steel-cut
oats that I got at a health food store were quite coarse and very hard.
I believe that just adding them to the mash dry would have required a
MUCH longer mash time to achieve starch conversion... even boiling
took quite a while to soften the oats.

I found that I had to add a LOT of water to the oats during
gelatinization. They just seem to keep soaking it up. I had to
reduce the amount and temperature of the rest of my mash water since I
was basically adding a substantial quantity of boiling oatmeal to the mash.

The stouts made using the oats have turned out very well. They have always
finished with a fairly high terminal gravity ~1.020, but I'm not sure
how much of that is the result of the oats and how much is due to the other
ingredients. The oatmeal stouts that I have made this way have had a very
nice creamy mouth-feel to them with a bit of residual sweetness.

Let us know how your's turns out!



Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 19:52:15 -0500
From: [email protected] (Rob Bradley)
Subject: No lag in old Wyeast

Greetings all,

WYeast says on their package the it will take n days for an n-month-old
package to puff out. I cracked a 4-month-old package of 1008 (German)
yesterday. At 24 hours it was already getting fat. The ambient was
60 or even lower, so I'm sure it would have been fully puffed in 24
hours at 68-70. This is slightly inconvenient as I'd been planning
to brew Sunday. Has anybody had the same experience with 1008? With
other strains?


Rob ([email protected])


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 22:22:42 -0500
From: "Aaron Frost"
Subject: Mountmellick Famous Irish Stout

Has anyone experienced a brew with Mountmellick Products, Hopped
Famous Irish Stout? I used 8 lbs, finished with 3/4 oz fresh
cascade that hed been lying around, and pitched the supplied
Will I get close to GUINNESS with this recipie?
O.G. was 1.058

Thanks for your opinions, I bottle on Sunday. Andrew.


Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 19:36:00
From: [email protected] (Gary Cote)
Subject: Milk Stout

Has anyone out there had a brew called "Tennents Milk Stout"?
I had one when I was in St. Maartin in november but I
have never seen it here in the states.
It was stronger than a Guinness Stout in taste and in
Just wondering...
Thanks..... Gary
[email protected]
- --
I`d rather have a bottle in front of me
than a frontal lobotimy....

* SLMR 2.1a *

* Origin: Leo Technology (603)432-2517/432-0922 (HST/V32)


End of HOMEBREW Digest #1060, 01/21/93

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