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Msg#: 6449 *NGC National*
08-18-92 09:26:00
From: PAUL DELMORE
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: YOUR MESSAGES
JC> activist (non-violent!!!!!) for Irish causes and I am
JC> continually shaken by the lack of knowledge and
JC> misconceptions about the Irish situation that exist in this
JC> country. But I am appalled by the unwillingness of most
JC> people I meet to learn anything differently.
I follow all your messages. All of my ancestors and those
of my wife except 1 came from IRELAND. They are believed to
have arrived between 1825 and 1880. I am certain that they
did not wish to leave their extended families and travel
under the most trying conditions on a long sea voyage to
a new land where they were to be discriminated against and
persecuted. In a letter from a 2d cousin in CASHEL, she
mentioned that pictures I had seen of a cottage where my
grandmother lived didn't show their original home. They had
been `driven' from their property in what she refers to as
`THE' war. I have to find out what she means by `THE'. When
I found them in the 1901 census, the family (6 of them and a
boarder) were living in a a small cottage with one doorway
and two small windows. The townland they were living in
was largely `owned' by an Englishman. His household was
distinguished by the number and size of its buildings.
I also had a gggfather, Thomas SMITH from CAVAN whose
original name of McGOWAN had been changed by decree in an
attempt to anglicize the IRISH. He was a `famine' imm.
..These are but 2 of the reasons I am expending so much
effort writing a family history based largely on the lives
of these ancestors. My children are aware of their heritage.
I write it down as I go since there is too much to remember.
..I have found that most Americans are not well-versed in
history. Their knowledge starts with the year they reached
puberty. I am a history addict, thus genealogy. My father's
family was not one to ever discuss life in the homeland.
His 89 yr old sister says they never talked about family.
A lot of what I found in US death certificates and
obituaries turned out to be erroneous guesses. But,
what I learned the last few years has enlightened me.
I have a book `THE STORY OF THE IRISH RACE' by Seumas
MacMANUS. Though it is slow reading, I pick it up again and
again. The story of the famine years is particularly
distressful.
..The integration of those of IRISH descent in the US with
those of other ethnic origins has been so extensive that
they are now 1/4 this and 1/8 that, and so on. My cousins
and their decendants have intermarried with Polish, German,
Italian, Lithuanian, Slovak, etc. The IRISH surname
remains in only a few cases. My name comes from DELAMARE,
a Norman knight given land in WESTMEATH by William the
Conqueror. Through intermarriage, they gradually were
assimilated into the population, lost the land, and later
mistreated equally with the native inhabitants.
..MY GENES ARE GREEN..

--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Flower City Central, Rochester, NY 716-889-2016 (1:260/204)



Msg#: 6751 *NGC National*
08-21-92 15:34:10
From: JIM CURRAN
To: PAUL DELMORE
Subj: IRISH WAR
"THE" war is almost certainly one of two. The first started with the Easter
Rising of 1916 which was quickly put down (one week) and flared up again in
1918 when the English refused to honor their promises to grant home rule after
100,000 Irish Redmonites gave their lives in WW I on the basis of that promise.
That war lasted until late 1921. (Some will say 1922; it depends on what you
consider the end of the war.) Peace negotiations were conducted by the Irish,
Michael Collins & Arthur Briffith primarily. They went in looking for and
expecting an independent Republic of Ireland. While the Irish still had the
will to wage war, they no longer had the means. The English OTOH had the
means, but not the will. The atrocities of the English, particularly the Black
and Tans, an extralegal police/paramilitary force recruited by the English from
WW vewterans, so inflamed world opinion that the English that they decided to
get by deceit and trickery what they could not win in battle.

Your people may have been forced out by the Black and Tans. Among their
atrocities was the burning of the town of Balbriggan and the massacre of Croke
Park.

More later.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 7206 *NGC National*
08-22-92 23:54:45
From: JIM CURRAN
To: PAUL DELMORE
Subj: MORE ON "THE" IRISH WAR - PART 2
The peace negotiations ended w/ English Prime minister David Lloyd George
delivering an ultimatum to the Irish negotiators. "Accept partition, status as
part of the UK, and a loyalty oath to the crown, or we will wage total and
horrible warfare." Griffith, Collins and the other negotiators accepted the
terms as the best they could get at the time. Among other things they were
also promised a Border Commission that would adjust the borders of the newly
created state, Northern Ireland, after peace was made. However, the negotiators
acted without consultation with Dublin, particularly Eamon deValera, head of
the IRA who had fought and won the war. Back in Ireland, the negotiators found
themselves shunned by many of their former compatriots. However, the terms
they negotiated were finally approved by Dail Eirann (the shadow parliament of
the rebel state).
There then ensued an argument that tore the land apart, created the
background for the current Troubles in Northern Ireland, still enflames the
emotions of large portions of the Republic and created the climate that
probably that sent your family on its way.
The former compatriots now differed on one and only one subject: whether
they could trust the English. Eamon deValera split with Michael Collins and
took his lads out to continue the battle for an Independent Republic. He and
those who followed him believed no Englishman's promise could be trusted and
that the English had no intention of honoring the terms of peace. Collins
became the Prime Minister of the Free Stae of Ireland (what is now the
Republic). Thus started the Irish Civil War of 1922-23.
The first part of the Civil War was indeed civil. Neither side was willing
to kill their former comrades and even members of their own families. However,
the ambush and assassination of Collins soon changed that and that war quickly
became nastier and bloodier than the Black and Tan War.
By 1923, the New IRA AKA Legion of the Rearguard (deValera's followers; as
opposed to the Old IRA, those accepting free state status) had run out their
string and capitulated. Probably the worst part of it all was that the New
IRA's position was proved the correct one; in 1925 the Border Commission was
abolished with the Free State's acquiesence, and it's only result was the
**TAKING** of a small part of Co. Donegal from the Free State.
The hatreds within families and within towns over the Civil War exist today
not far below the surface. You speak to Irish men and women on these subjects
at your peril. A misstep can place you on one side or the other in the wink of
an eye. Many people still alive are affected by it, many had parents killed or
maimed. And it can never be satisfactorily resolved while the inital irritant
- the partitioning of Ireland - still exists to keep the embers of rebellion
glowing.
For Irish genealogists, the Civil War was an unmitigated disaster. Early in
the century, the Irish government had demanded that each parish and each civil
government office turn over their vital records to the central goverment for
safekeeping and greater access. They were stored at the Four Courts. The New
IRA took over the Four Courts as their headquarters. The Free State, at
English insistence and with Collins leadership, decided to root out the New IRA,
and, using English artillery, bombarded the Four Courts.
The New IRA was driven out, but the fires started by the shelling destroyed
the centralized vital records. Only those places that were too lazy to respond
to the central government orders, or who first made copies of their records
before surrendering them, still have their own vital records. That's why
researching your Irish roots is so difficult.
Due to the ravages of the Civil War, many Irish emigratd in 1925-26 and is
most likely the time period your people did.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 7207 *NGC National*
08-22-92 23:55:48
From: JIM CURRAN
To: PAUL DELMORE
Subj: MORE ON "THE" IRISH WAR - PART 3
On the subject of Seumas MacManus: do enjoy it; it's a fascinating book. But
take his rendition of Irish history with a grain of salt. He is not a historian
in the usual sense. He treats legend and fact as equally valid as is most
clearly seen in his early chapters about prehistoric Ireland. Ireland was a
bardic society, depending on oral history. They had a written language, Ogham
scipt, but it was considered inferior to the oral tradition and was apparently
used only on stone monuments. Personal opinion: the written language was
difficult to use and, like all written language, cannot express the infinite
shadings of the spoken word. I would make a comparison to the recent objection
I received to my multiple use of the word "died" in a previous message. I
suspect that the writer did not get the impact of the segment because he saw it
in written form. I am virtually certain his opinion would have almost exactly
the opposite if he had heard it rather than read it. The section reduces most
people to tears when heard.
Again on McManus: he was also a romantic with his own axe to grind,
nationalism, and chose to ignore many inconvenient facts of history. Those he
uses are generally accurate; it's only those that he forgets or glosses over
that cause a problem. It is more a political tract than a history. Read with
that in mind, it is a delightful, enlightening book.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#:10558 *NGC National*
08-27-92 18:37:00
From: PAUL DELMORE
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: YOUR MSGS
Thanks for taking the time to send your messages. Although my
knowledge of IRISH history cannot favorably compare w/ yours, I
am generally aware of the 20th century struggles. When I was in
KILLARNEY, there were old bullet marks in the stone face of our
hotel, the GREAT SOUTHERN. Later, I walked the streets of DUBLIN
where some of this history occurred. I am sadly aware of the loss
of records. It makes a tough job even tougher.
..My paternal gggfather PATRICK DELMORE married MARY MURPHY in OTTAWA
in 1833. In the 1840 US Census, 2 males 10-15 and 2 females 0-5
years of age were in his household. The 2 males most certainly were from
a previous marriage. One of them was my ggfather, PATRICK DELMORE,
who had been born in IRELAND. I have not found what happened to
the other son. PATRICK married ANNA HOGAN, a `famine immigrant' about
1855. The elder PATRICK said on his marriage license in 1833 he was
from KILESHANDRA, CAVAN. My paternal gmother, CATHERINE MAHER, b.1870
in CAMBLIN, a townland in ROSCREA parish, N. TIPPERARY, came to
BOSTON in 1886, later marrying my gfather JOHN DELMORE in 1893 in
PA. My mother's side of the family arrived from 1850's to the late
70's. IRISH married IRISH, and RC married RC. ALL married here.
..I found more of my gmother's family in EIRE's 1901 census on a
farm in CAMBLIN owned by JOHN JACKSON. JACKSON owned a significant
portion of the 634 acre townland. There were 10 families there in 1901.
Through a friend I met on this conf., I found a JAMES MAHER in
CAMBLIN in the IRISH phonebook. I wrote. He was not a relative but
inquired and learned that the cottage was last occupied by the
youngest son&wife. It's now abandoned and overgrown. He took pictures
of the cottage and nearby chapel. Although my gmother was born
in CAMBLIN, the later children were born in AGHSMEAR, an adjacent
townland. My gmothers parents, married in '67, were from BORRISNOE,
BOURNEY Par., TIPPERARY. So, I will ask my cousin if it might have
been AGHSMEAR or BORRISNOE. How did they wind up back in CAMBLIN?
She lives in CASHEL and it's difficult to get a letter out of her.
.. My wife's ancestor's are also almost all IRISH. We came from a
small town in PA and both went to a parochial school attended largely
by children of IRISH descent. Her mat. gmother had married a JACOB
NORTON in 1904. JACOB's gfather, JOHN NORTON, a Protestant had come
from Co. DOWN. JACOB was killed in a rr accident about 1907. When I
found his obituary I was surprised to learn that he came from a large
family. One of his brothers was named OSCAR. I called the only
OSCAR in the hometown phonebook and he was a descendant of one of
JACOB's brothers! The living OSCAR had reams of data that his father
had kept in a tablet listing vital info on the other ancestors.
My wife's mother never mentioned this side of the family to her or
her sisters. Due to the difference in religion, both sides
apparently did not associate with one another. Another coincidence-
the living OSCAR NORTON had worked with my father and uncle!
The old feelings gradually faded. In most cases today, it is difficult
to tell what one's ethnic origin might be. In general, it is like
many pieces of a pie. Many do not even know. Religion is still
thought to be important, but the fervor of the immigrants is no
longer there. My brother gave me McMANUS, but I have a number of
other books, mainly references. You've rewakened my curiosity and
I will have to browse the IRISH section again at our local library.
I saved todays msgs for rereading. Thanks again..

PAUL DELMORE, 55 MAYVILLE LANE, ROCHESTER NY 14617

... ..CAED MILE FAILTE ..
___ Via Silver Xpress V3.01

--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: Flower City Central, Rochester, NY 716-889-2016 (1:260/204)



Msg#:10628 *NGC National*
08-30-92 12:06:55
From: JIM CURRAN
To: PAUL DELMORE
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 10558 (YOUR MSGS)
A couple of stray thoughts about your messages: there is a **great** Irish
song about the "lanes of Killeshandra." Let me see if I can track it down for
you.

Also, I note you are in Rochester. My dau. lives and teaches there. I'll try
to give you a call the next time we're up that way.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)


Msg#: 6664 *NGC National*
08-15-92 05:31:00
From: BONNIE BUNCE
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 5066 (IRISH IMMIGRANTS)
-=> Quoting Jim Curran to Elsie Savell <=-

JC> Thank you for your very kind comments. My Irish heritage has become
JC> very important to me and I have devoted exceptional amounts of time,
JC> love and effort to learning as much as I can about Irish history.

Jim, I, too, have been reading with interest your messages on the
Irish. My g.grandmother, Ellen Mary (Clark) Monsees, emigrated from Ireland to
America between 1871-74, and I believe that she or her family became ashamed
that she was from Ireland. I base this on the 4 public records I have found on
her. The first two, the 1880 New York City Soundex census and the birth certif-
icate of my grandmother dated 1885, show that my g.grandmother was b. in
Ireland, but the other 2 records I have on her, the 1920 New York City census
and her death certificate show she was b. in the U.S. I think it must have
been common for the Irish to hide their nationality since there was so much
antagonism toward them, caused mostly by the fact that when they came to this
country, they often took jobs away from others, when they were hired on as
strike breakers. This carried over to next generations. Once my mother was
telling me how her grandmother, Ellen Monsees, would sit on her front porch and
entertain the young people in the neighborhood with stories. My mother said
her grandmother could speak with an Irish brogue, but then my mother said in a
hushed voice, "but she didn't speak like that all the time," indicating to me
that she felt an Irish brogue was something to be ashamed of. Yet I'm certain
Ellen Monsees was an Irish Catholic, as she was buried in a Roman Catholic
cemetery in New York and the church where my grandparents were married was a
Roman Catholic Church which is in the same neighborhood where my g.grandmother
lived, I'm told.
Actually, one should be proud to be Irish. I've read that they were
the first people of the British Isles to be converted to Christianity and that
if it wasn't for the Irish monks, a great many old manuscripts would have been
destroyed during the Norsemen's raids in the Middle Ages. Irish monks saved
many documents that are an important part of our Western civilization. Also
the Irish were the first to use surnames, and where we would genealogists be
without surnames to research, huh? In addition, some of the greatest writers
in the English language who ever lived were Irish, such as James Joyce, author
of "Ulysses" said by some to be the greatest novel ever written. So even
though my dad was angry with me one time as a child when I was glad it was St.
Patrick's Day, since I was part Irish, and he said I wasn't, I know better
now, and am not ashamed to be part Irish.

... Sit down--you're rocking the boat.
~~~ Blue Wave/RA v2.05 [NR]

--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: TMS/JFF Here! Root Cellar Too!! 303-770-3217 HST (1:104/330)



Msg#: 6743 *NGC National*
08-21-92 10:49:55
From: JIM CURRAN
To: BONNIE BUNCE
Subj: IRISHNESS
Oh my God, what your comments have brought back to mind. I am totally of Irish
extraction, yet, to this day, I have a sister who bristles when it is brought
up. She has consistently denied her Irish background.

Oops, I have just been warned to get off. I will try to continue this on
another day. Thank you for your comments.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 7208 *NGC National*
08-23-92 01:09:01
From: JIM CURRAN
To: BONNIE BUNCE
Subj: MORE ON "IRISHNESS" - PART 2
My sister was always described as the "classic English beauty" in the
family. Bullroar!!! She, like me, is as Irish as Paddy's pig, even after 4-5
generations in this country. She got her attitude from my mother and her
mother, who was born at Rockingham Desmense, Co. Roscommon. I have other
members of the family who apparently deliberately changed their names (e.g., a
John became at some point Jonathon) and used English family names as first and
middle names when there is no history of them in the family (e.g., Leigh,
Fenton, Gilbert). I have a 1st cousin on my father's side who was recently
(1990) stunned to learn our history. My mother and her mother did such a good
job, my father's family was totally bamboozled.
I find I have mixed emotions about these conceits. I know why they did it
and sympathize with them. Life in this country for the Irish from 1860 until
relatively recently was anything but easy. They created the first ghettoes in
America and fought their way out of them with education, ambitiom, drive and
organization. OTOH, I find it difficult it to understand why they would deny
such a rich, wonderful, unique heritage.
BTW, your comments about the Irish vis-a-vis Western heritage are not quite
accurate. The period in which they saved the remnants was not the Middle Ages
or even the time of the Norsemen. It actually occurred several centuries
earlier at the height of the Dark Ages. The Irish Sea, the English channel
and the mountainous coastal areas of Ireland protected Irish society from both
the Romans and the later barbarians from the east.
Ireland is one of the few countries converted to Christianity in a totally
peaceful manner. It actually occured at least a century earlier than St.
Patrick and there were substantial settlements of Christian communities in the
south of Ireland (in Co. Cork, for instance) long before Patrick.
Patrick, however, gets the credit for spreading Christianity the length and
breadth of Ireland. BTW he was an Englishman he was taken into slavery by
Irish pirates. After release, he returned to England, became a priest and then
returned to Ireland to Christianize it. There is a long, delightful story of
his encounter with King Aengus that opened the door for his conversion to
Christianity. It is much too long to quote here;
do look it up. However, I must comment on his "ridding Ireland of snakes."
Ireland never had any snakes! So where does the story come from? It seems
that Druidic priests, among other adorments, used tatoos. A common tatoo was
coiled serpents about the arms. So "chasing the snakes out" really means
"chasing the druids out." How did they know about snakes if they had none?
Celtic society covered virtually all of the Western Europe in Roman times, from
Spain to Austria, from Northern Italy to England and Ireland and snakes were
common in other areas. There was much traffic among the Celts even in those
early days.
After becoming Christian, Ireland developed a system of church structure
based on abbeys and abbots, while the rest of Europe tended toward bishoprics
and bishops. The abbeys resulted in very local control of the church and
prevented much of the breakdown in the Church seen on the Mainland when the
more centralized control of the bishops was destroyed by the barbarians.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 7209 *NGC National*
08-23-92 01:10:31
From: JIM CURRAN
To: BONNIE BUNCE
Subj: MORE ON "IRISHNESS" - PART 3
It was during this period that Ireland became the repository for Western
civilization and became "the land of saints and scholars." They preserved most
of the heritage, and when Western Europe calmed down enough, became the
missionaries that reignited the glories of Western civilization. A few odd
facts: you've probably heard of the two monks that were Charlemagne's
inspiration; guess what? Irish! The Irish created a large percentage of the
great monastaries of Europe, such as Bobbio. Guess what St. Bernard was? And
guess who they civilized and brought to Christianity (such as they practice
it)? The Scots and the English! In fact, the "Scots" were originally the
Irish. In Roman times, Ireland was known as both Hibernia and Scotia. The
name comes from Queen Scotus, mother of the five Milesian kings who invaded and
conquered Ireland B.C. The name was tranferred to Scotland after St.
Columcille, among others, was instumental in establishing a monastery on the
island Ierne on the Scottish coast and succeeded in converting the wild Picts
of the Highlands. It wasn't until the 11th Century that it became known as the
Land of the Scots or Scotland because of this influence.
There is also a long, hilarious shaggy dog story that I'll repeat only the
punchline of. Bagpipes originally come from the area that is now Turkey and
came to Ireland with Phonecian traders who came to get gold and copper from the
Avoca Valley of Ireand and tin from Cornwall. The punchline: "So we gave them
the bagpipes and they still haven't figured out what we did to them!"
From there, the missionary saints went on to create the incredible
monastery of Landisferne, which was either in southern Scotland or northern
England. England, I believe, but don't have time or the resources to look it
up right now. From there they brought Christianity to the English, although
the Irish have an awfully hard time believing the English form of it.
Please forgive me for correcting you, but the real story is so much more
magnificent and sheds so much light on the both the glory and problems of
Ireland that I couldn't resist. In fact, the original invasion of Ireland by
the Norman English in 1169 was prompted by some of this history. Among other
things, in the time of Henry II, the Pope (Leo, I believe and I forget the
number), was an Englishman. In fact he was the only English Pope. Henry used a
battle between two Irishmen (over a woman, of course), Dermot and Tiernan (who
both turn out to be probable ancestors of mine;
Dermot certainly was, Tiernan, maybe), as an excuse to send Strongbow to
conquer Ireland. He secured a Bull from Leo to justify the invasion on the
basis of saving Ireland for Christianity! This from people who still wore blue
woad for clothing when Ireland had a centuries-long history of Christianity,
love of education, stable society and devotion to music and poetry.
BTW, the name Bunce is not a common one. In 1938, a Dr. Bunce worked with
and attended the death of a 2nd cousin of mine, Dr. George Lally Curran, in
North Adams, MA. Any relation?
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



****** How do you respond to one like this ????? ********


Msg#:11398 *NGC National*
08-27-92 17:03:00
From: ROBERT GOING
To: JIM CURRAN
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 10464 (MORE ON "IRISHNESS" - PART 2)
On (27 Aug 92) Jim Curran wrote to Bonnie Bunce...

JC> Patrick, however, gets the credit for spreading Christianity the
JC> length
JC> and breadth of Ireland. BTW he was an Englishman he was taken into
JC> slavery
JC> by Irish pirates. After release, he returned to England, became a
JC> priest

Insasmuch as we attempt to be precise in this echo, it should be noted
that Patrick predated the Anglo-Saxon invasions of Britain and therefor
he would have been a Briton, not an Englishman. Otherwise, well done!

--- PPoint 1.30
* Origin: Samuel Spade Agency (1:267/132.7)



Msg#:10464 *NGC National*
08-27-92 17:06:00
From: BONNIE BUNCE
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 7208 (MORE ON "IRISHNESS" - PART 2)
JC> I find I have mixed emotions about these conceits. I know why
JC> they did it and sympathize with them. Life in this country for the
JC> Irish from 1860 until relatively recently was anything but easy. They
JC> created the first ghettoes in America and fought their way out of them
JC> with education, ambitiom, drive and organization. OTOH, I find it
JC> difficult it to understand why they would deny such a rich, wonderful,
JC> unique heritage.

Jim, thanks for such an informative message. It's interesting that your sister
doesn't like being called Irish, but as you said the Irish had a tough time of
it for many years, and so it probably paid to try to blend in with the
conquering English rather than fight them. It's interesting to note that there
were two types of Irish, the black Irish, which must have been descended from
the Celtic tribes, and the others, which were the blond and red-haired Irish,
who were, I guess, actually descendants of Norsemen who settled the town of
Dublin.
I read Leon Uris' book "Trinity" about the Irish problems and developed a
real sympathy for my g.grandmother. I know very little about her, because my
parents were divorced when I was young, and I was raised by my father and spent
very little time with my mother as I grew up, but once I remember she told me
something to the effect that her grandmother, my Irish g.grandmother, said most
of the problems in the world are caused by a lack of tolerance for people who
are different than you are, probably a lesson she learned in Ireland, wouldn't
you say?
I will try to find the story about the meeting between St. Patrick and
that king, sounds just like the kind of blarney I like to read!

--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: TMS/JFF Here! Root Cellar Too!! 303-770-3217 HST (1:104/330)




Msg#:10820 *NGC National*
08-28-92 20:02:00
From: BONNIE BUNCE
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 7209 (MORE ON "IRISHNESS" - PART 3)
Oh, Jim, your love of the Irish certainly shines through your messages! Yes, I
know Bunce isn't a common name. It's supposed to be English although a book I
read on the origin of names says that Bunce comes from the French word "bon"
meaning a good person, and the
book went on to say that some the ancestors of the Bunces came over with
William the Conqueror from France, but I don't have any proof back that far,
only to 1772, the birth date of my g.g.grandfather, Peter Bunce, who may have
been a descendant of Thomas Bunce who was one of the original proprietors of
Hartford, Conn. in 1640, but again I have no proof.
My Irish ancestry appears to be solely my g.grandmother Ellen Mary Clark,
and her death certificate said her father's name was John Clark born in Ireland
and her mother's name was Mary Brady also born in Ireland. I know my
g.grandmother was Catholic because she's buried in a Catholic cemetery in New
York, and my grandparents were married in a Catholic Church in New York City.
Even though my ancestry reads more like Heinz 57, I feel my personality
has more Irish characteristics. I read once in a very small article that stuck
in my mind, that scientists did some studies and found that children's
personalities were more like their mother's and maternal grandmother's than
like their father, even when the children seldom saw their maternal
grandmothers, so my Irish g.grandmother is the female line in my family, and
she was apparently born in Ireland during the great potato famine in 1849. It's
amazing to me that she survived that terrible event, when so many died. I
wonder what happened to her parents, and what part of Ireland she came from.
Oh, to answer your question about Dr. Bunce in Adams, Mass. I don't know
of any relatives named Bunce that stayed back East. Most of the male
descendants died out in my line, with the exception of my g.grandfather's
family who moved to Kansas in 1857. From an article given to my father from
one of his cousins, I read that the Bunces that stayed in Hartford became
well-to-do and got into, what else, the insurance business, so it's possible
the Dr. Bunce in your message was another descendant of Thomas Bunce.

--- TosScan(q) 1.00
* Origin: TMS/JFF Here! Root Cellar Too!! 303-770-3217 HST (1:104/330)



Msg#:10656 *NGC National*
08-30-92 21:52:52
From: JIM CURRAN
To: BONNIE BUNCE
Subj: BLACK IRISH-PART 1 OF 2
Bonnie-
Am glad you are enjoying the messages so much. A few notes on the various
strains of Irish - although I must admit I am getting away from areas of
personal expertise when I start talking about genetics. OTOH this particular
topic is one I cannot be disagreed with on. No matter how many sources anyone
can come up with, I can find that many more that support my statements. (-:
**NOTHING** about Irish history in the eras I am discussing can be proven one
way or another.
The Irish are an incredible mixture of races, but are primarily Celtic in
nature. There were at least 4 distinctly different invasions of Ireland by the
Celts. (And puh-lease, unlike the Bostonians who love their basketball team,
the word Celt has a hard 'c' coming from the Romans' name Keltoi.)
The most distinctive feature that the Irish got from the Celts was the red
hair. The last Celtic invasion was that of the Gaels (whence the name Gaelic
for the language) under the five Milesian kings. Milesius (which is really a
title meaning something like Champion or Leader rather than a name) was their
father and Queen Scotus was their mother. (Still more genealogy!) Offhand, I
can only remember three of the kings' names right now, Ir, Emer & Eremon. If
you haunt Irish festivals and stores like I do, there are some neat maps you
will see from time to time that trace ancient Irish families from each of the
Milesian kings. I'm not sure too much belief should be put in these lineages.
In their invasion they defeated the Tuatha de Danaan (Tribe of Dana). Dana
was a goddess and suggests they were a result of an earlier invasion from the
area of Denmark where Dana was a primary deity and for whom Denmark may be
named. de Danaans were slight of stature and supposedly exceedingly comely.
After defeat, tradition has it they descended below ground and became the
"Little People" or Leprechauns.
The Gaels came to Ireland from the Galatia area of northern Spain. Depending
on whose version of "history", such as it is, you want to believe: First: the
Gaels came to Spain by migrating west from the Blue Mountain area of Austria
which was the original home of the Celts before they discovered the secrets of
iron working and conquered all of Western Europe. Caesar fought the Celts in
Gaul- Vercingetorix, etc.
Second: and by far the preferable, or at least more fascinating, story has
Scotus' tribe moving **east** into Asia Minor as nomads and continuing on
around the Meditteranean and across Northern Africa before crossing into Spain
at Gibraltar. Some stories have them picking up the pipes in Turkey and
bringing them with them when they ended up in Ireland. However, this is truly
fictional; pipes in Ireland long predated the Gaels and were probably brought
by the Phoenecian traders I mentioned in an earlier message.
The reasons for the Gaels leaving Spain to conquer Ireland brings the story
of the Famine that originally started this exchange full circle;
the Milesians left Spain because of drought and famine.
Gaels were much taller and more strongly built than the inhabitants of
Ireland at the time of the invasion. In addition to the de Danaan, there were
the Firbolg, probably a still earlier Celtic invader who had been defeated by
the de Danaan using a superior form of spear. The Firbolg were very small,
dark, heavily muscled people, not unlike the descriptions you find of trolls.
After defeat, they retreated to Connacht in the west of Ireland. The Firbolg
have been descibed in some places as remmants of a Neanderthal race.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#:10657 *NGC National*
08-30-92 21:54:24
From: JIM CURRAN
To: BONNIE BUNCE
Subj: BLACK IRISH-PART 2 OF 2
Complicating the picture were the Fomorians who were sea raiders. I know of
no description of them as a people, but I am sure there must be one somewhere.
They are particularly shadowy; they have been variously described as sailors
from North Africa and Picts from the Hebrides. Actually, the Hebrides and Tory
Island were prob. simply their bases for excursions against the Irish.
So those are the basic elements of Celtic Ireland. Now come the overlays.
The first, a millenium after the Gaelic invasion, was the Norsemen. The most
important point to keep in mind is that no Irishman ever built a city or a town
of any size; they were all the work of later invaders. The Norse are
responsible for such places as Wexford, Dublin and Limerick. For the first
couple centuries of incursions, there was little effect of the Norse on the
Irish. The Norse didn't settle; they merely raided and used their towns as
jumping off points for incursions up the rivers of Ireland. The brought
extremely fair complexions, blond hair and blue eyes to the Irish and an even
more rugged build than that received from the Gaels. They were defeated by
Brian Boru at Clontarf in 1013 and became a part of the Irish mainstream.
The next wave were the Normans who were simply Norsemen who stopped off for
many generations in northern France before conquering the English mainland and
the Anglo-Saxons in 1089. BTW, the Angles and the Saxons had previously invaded
and defeated the Celtic lands of what is now England. King Arthur is supposedly
the third from last Celtic King of England. The Normans invaded in 1169 under
Strongbow as I described in an earlier note. They brought with them the same
characteristics as the Norsemen.
So who are the Black Irish? They come from the West, primarily the Connemara
region of Co. Galway. Some of their characteristics are a result of the
Firbolg influence, but there is an even stronger, much more recent influence.
During the Middle Ages, English influence waned as the Normans became "more
Irish than the Irish" and they were steadily forced back to a small area around
Dublin called the Pale. BTW the phrase "beyond the pale" means being one of
those "barbarous" Irishmen living outside the English-controlled area. During
this period, Irish society gravitated to a great extent about the seaport of
Galway City which maintained a thriving sea trade with the Mediterranean area
and particularly with Spain. Many of the premier families of Galway derive
from traders from those area who settled in Ireland. They brought with
them olive complexions, black eyes and black hair.
Still later, at the time of the Spanish Armada, as the Armada attempted to
escape, the remnants of the fleet proceeded around the northern tip of Ireland
only to meet thunderous storms and seas off the west coast of Ireland. Many a
ship-wrecked sailor brought his olive complexion, black eyes and black hair to
the hearths of Donegal, Mayo, Sligo & Galway.
Thus the genesis of the term "Black Irish." I am often amazed by the truly
incredible interpretations put on that term by the unknowledgeable. It refers
**ONLY** to the dark-complected, dark-haired, dark-eyed strain of Irishman. To
this day, you can find in the far west of Ireland, Irish men and women who you
would swear were Spanish, Italian or Greek. I have friends from Clifden in
Connemara (next stop west is America) who you would never believe to be Irish
if you didn't know their history.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 7142 *NGC National*
08-20-92 10:28:00
From: CONNIE ANDERSON
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 6929 (RE: IRISH IMMIGRANTS)
On 08-18-92 JIM CURRAN wrote to DON NICKELL...
Jim, I, too, was fasinated by your lessons in Irish history, and I did
manage to "printout' part 2 & 3, and feel sure that part 1 in "saved "
on a backup disk of a friend, if I can just figure out how to reload
it and look for the original message, which would require detailed
instructions from someone, as I am "computer illiterate", but I would
be most happy to make "paper copies" of all 3 msgs and mail them to
you if you will post your address. PLEASE keep up the history
lessons. I have learned more from them than I have in all my years.
ca.
JC> I am amazed by the amount of interest these messages generated. I'll
JC> have to see about capturing them myself from NGS. They were all
JC> off the top of my head and I didn't keep copies. I'll get back to
JC> you once I do.
JC> --- TBBS v2.1/NM
JC> * Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612
JC> (1:109/302)

... OFFLINE 1.39

--- WM v2.03/92-0271
* Origin: Trinity Cross, Colo. Springs, CO (719)380-0751 (1:128/109)



Msg#: 7143 *NGC National*
08-20-92 10:34:00
From: CONNIE ANDERSON
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 7142 (RE: IRISH IMMIGRANTS)
On 08-18-92 JIM CURRAN wrote to DON NICKELL...
Jim, just found your offer to sent the"Irish " info on a disk, would
you please send me one also? I will gladly pay you. Connie C. Anderson
50 Huntington Beach Dr., Colorado Springs, CO 80921-3228, oh yes,
either size will do.
JC> I believe I have captured most of the notes in the various
JC> conversations.
JC> I have done some minor editing; no changes of content but removal of
JC> some of my more egregious typos and word omissions.
JC> I also rearranged the order of the messages to make them have a little
JC> more sense. There were several interrelated conversations and
JC> I tried to put them in some kind of order. The main thread comes
JC> first, then a couple of smaller threads and, finally, a collection of
JC> miscellaneous notes. The file is almost 50k. Resending them over the
JC> echo is out of the question. Even printing them and mailing is an
JC> exceptional chore. How about my sending them on disk? 3.5 or 5.25?
JC> What's your address?
JC> --- TBBS v2.1/NM
JC> * Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612
JC> (1:109/302)

--- WM v2.03/92-0271
* Origin: Trinity Cross, Colo. Springs, CO (719)380-0751 (1:128/109)



Msg#: 9655 *NGC National*
08-26-92 14:21:00
From: CONNIE ANDERSON
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 7321 (RE: IRISH IMMIGRANTS)
On 08-23-92 JIM CURRAN wrote to DON NICKELL...
'OH KEEP MY MEMORY ALIVE, FOR IF YOU FORGET ME, ONLY THEN, WILL I HAVE
SURELY DIED." Keep on "remembering" them, Jim. We are the better for
it! God bless. ca.

JC> Thanks for the suggestion. I'm wondering whether I should wait a
JC> little longer. Since our exchang several other covnersations have
JC> started on this whole topic of Irish history. You might look for
JC> notes from me to Paul Delmore and to Bonnie Bunce among others.
JC>
JC> I have found this whole process unbelievable. After spending many
JC> years and much effort trying to find a forum, I have this one fall
JC> into my lap without even trying for it. And I didn't even recognize
JC> it until I had asked the original question about my g-grandfather
JC> and his involvement in the New Irelanders.
JC>
JC> I would like to believe I am creating a new understanding of the Irish
JC> and their problems, both historic and current, from a non-violent
JC> point of view and free from the excesses of extreme partisanship.
JC> To the extent I succeed in this goal, I honor the memory of my
JC> ancestors and they live again.
JC>
JC> I will do what you suggest, but not immediately I hope you won't mind
JC> the
JC> wait.
JC> --- TBBS v2.1/NM
JC> * Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612
JC> (1:109/302)

--- WM v2.03/92-0271
* Origin: Trinity Cross, Colo. Springs, CO (719)380-0751 (1:128/109)



Msg#: 9822 *NGC National*
08-28-92 11:32:42
From: JIM CURRAN
To: CONNIE ANDERSON
Subj: THANKS TO A KINDRED IRISH SOUL
Please, please, please contact me and let me know how I can talk to you
directly. It is essential.

1529 Denniston Ave., Pittsburgh, PA 15217 (412) 422-8076

From the dedication and introduction of my show, "The Exiles: Brothers of the
West Wind":

To remember. To honor.

To Judith Fitzgerald Tierney, who newly widowed and pregnant, emigrated with
her six children and lived to see them well on their way to becoming the 6th
Bishop of Hartford, lawyer, businessman, teacher, Judge of Probate, Mother
Superior;

To her husband John Tierney, who never lived to see any of it;

To Catherine Butler, who survived famine and coffin ship, only to die in
childbirth.

To Patrick Curran, Young Irelander, sentenced to transportation for life and
reprieved, common laborer, who gave his health and eventually his life to the
paper mills of New England, and who never lived to see virtually every one of
his children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren and great-greatgrandchildren
become educated professionals;

To his wife, Margaret Manning Curran, who lived to see much of it, but who, in
the process, buried six of her nine children;

To John Chambers and his brothers who transferred their father's blacksmithing
heritage to a new land and survived . . . survived to establish a family of
success and honor;

To Thomas Maxwell, patriarch of the family, who shepherded the new arrivals and
taught a heritage of education and achievment;

To Thomas Richard McDermott, Prince of Coolavin, who grieved for the loss of
his beloved land and died of a broken heart, but who made of his home a
reception center for the scores of relatives he sponsored in emigration;
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 9824 *NGC National*
08-28-92 11:36:28
From: JIM CURRAN
To: CONNIE ANDERSON
Subj: KINDRED IRISH SOUL-PART2

To his wife, Catherine Maxwell Green McDermott, that tower of strength, who
through love and constancy, brought them all through;

To Margaret and Henry Mansfield, torn from their lives at an age when they
should have been seeking their ease, and to their son Henry, who having taken
up arms for his adopted country, received no training and 29 days after
enlistment, was captured and sat out the war in Libby Prison, and to their
daughter Mary, who though bewildered by the casual cruelty of an uncaring
world, survived . . . survived to mother generations of distinction.

To Elizabeth Christie, of whom, to our shame, we know little other than her
name;

(newly added) OH KEEP MY MEMORY ALIVE, FOR IF YOU FORGET ME, ONLY THEN, WILL I
HAVE SURELY DIED.

To those who died . . . To those who survived . . .

To the Exiles! May they live forever!


I am the soul of Ireland, the poet of her people. I sing of the mountains, the
valleys, the streams. I live in the air, in the forests, in the fires of love
and beauty. I roam the land from hill to hill. I ramble the wild glens. The
sea is my home. I lived at the dawn of Time. I was at my country's beginnings.

I know the sound of the gun, the clash of steel, the smell of battle smoke. The
hunger of the past is in my belly. There are tears in my laughing eyes. I know
the tongue of my own. I spoke with kings and queens, wrestled in battle, sang
with soldiers and gypsy men. I was at Clontarf and Killala, the Boyne and
Limerick. I inspired Pearse and Tone. I made the new Ireland.

Ye have heard my tongue, farmer and clergyman, scholar and tinker . . .

Come sing with me now!
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)


Msg#:11439 *NGC National*
08-30-92 06:42:00
From: CONNIE ANDERSON
To: JIM CURRAN
Subj: THANKS TO A KINDRED IRISH
On 08-28-92 JIM CURRAN wrote to CONNIE ANDERSON...

JC> Please, please, please contact me and let me know how I can talk to

JC> you directly. It is essential.
Jim, not sure if the above msg was meant for me or not, but in case it
was, you can reach me either by mail, by phone, or here. Mail : Connie
Clifton Anderson, 50 Huntington Beach Dr., Colorado Springs, CO
80921-3228, ph (719) 481-4973, (no answering machine on that line, so
no chg to you if I'm not here), as for the BBS, you will have to look
at the bottom of this, as I don't know how else to tell you, it's
"Trinity Cross" in Colorado Springs, and we do get the NGC. ca. JC>
JC> 1529 Denniston Ave., Pittsburgh, PA 15217 (412) 422-8076
JC>
JC> From the dedication and introduction of my show, "The Exiles: Brothers
JC> of the West Wind":
JC>
JC> To remember. To honor.
JC>
JC> To Judith Fitzgerald Tierney, who newly widowed and pregnant,
JC> emigrated with her six children and lived to see them well on their
JC> way to becoming the 6th Bishop of Hartford, lawyer, businessman,
JC> teacher, Judge of Probate, Mother Superior;
JC>
JC> To her husband John Tierney, who never lived to see any of it;
JC>
JC> To Catherine Butler, who survived famine and coffin ship, only to die
JC> in childbirth.
JC>
JC> To Patrick Curran, Young Irelander, sentenced to transportation for
JC> life and reprieved, common laborer, who gave his health and eventually
JC> his life to the paper mills of New England, and who never lived to see
JC> virtually every one of his children, grandchildren, greatgrandchildren
JC> and great-greatgrandchildren become educated professionals;
JC>
JC> To his wife, Margaret Manning Curran, who lived to see much of it, but
JC> who, in the process, buried six of her nine children;
JC>
JC> To John Chambers and his brothers who transferred their father's
JC> blacksmithing heritage to a new land and survived . . . survived to
JC> establish a family of success and honor;
JC>
JC> To Thomas Maxwell, patriarch of the family, who shepherded the new
JC> arrivals and taught a heritage of education and achievment;
JC>
JC> To Thomas Richard McDermott, Prince of Coolavin, who grieved for the
JC> loss of his beloved land and died of a broken heart, but who made of
JC> his home a reception center for the scores of relatives he sponsored
JC> in emigration;
JC> --- TBBS v2.1/NM
JC> * Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612
JC> (1:109/302)


--- WM v2.03/92-0271
* Origin: Trinity Cross, Colo. Springs, CO (719)380-0751 (1:128/109)



Msg#:11916 *NGC National*
08-31-92 15:08:00
From: CONNIE ANDERSON
To: JIM CURRAN
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 9824 (KINDRED IRISH SOUL-PART2)
On 08-28-92 JIM CURRAN wrote to CONNIE ANDERSON...
Dear kindred spirit, how you have made my heart sing once more. I have
copied it all, to read over and over, and to give to my sons and
daughters, so that they might understand, (but do they ever?). I know
that many of us Americans enjoy saying we're Irish, and there's no
harm in that, and someday I'll find where in Ireland my ancestors came
from, all I have to go on, is both sets of grandparents telling me so,
from the time I was a little red headed, green eyed girl with a temper
as big as she, a "gift" for making mountains out of molehills, ( it
made them more interesting, you see) hardheaded, stubborn, and with a
heart as big as all outdoors. My mother was the same, as was her
mother, and both as smart as they come. Bell, Bellar & Butler was her
line. My father's was Daniel & Clifton, supposedly from "Clifden" on
Gallway Bay, and misspelled by the census taker. Who knows for sure.
(My husband says he'd know I was Irish anyway, by my temperment.)
Whatever, you've had me crying my heart out one minute, and it
bursting the next. Please don't stop. God bless you. cca.
JC>
JC> To his wife, Catherine Maxwell Green McDermott, that tower of
JC> strength, who through love and constancy, brought them all through;
JC>
JC> To Margaret and Henry Mansfield, torn from their lives at an age when
JC> they should have been seeking their ease, and to their son Henry, who
JC> having taken up arms for his adopted country, received no training and
JC> 29 days after enlistment, was captured and sat out the war in Libby
JC> Prison, and to their daughter Mary, who though bewildered by the
JC> casual cruelty of an uncaring world, survived . . .
JC> survived to mother generations of distinction.
JC>
JC> To Elizabeth Christie, of whom, to our shame, we know little other
JC> than her name;
JC>
JC> (newly added)
JC> OH KEEP MY MEMORY ALIVE, FOR IF YOU FORGET ME, ONLY THEN, WILL I HAVE
JC> SURELY DIED.
JC>
JC> To those who died . . . To those who survived . . .
JC>
JC> To the Exiles! May they live forever!
JC>
JC>
JC> I am the soul of Ireland, the poet of her people. I sing of the
JC> mountains, the valleys, the streams. I live in the air, in the
JC> forests, in the fires of love and beauty. I roam the land from hill
JC> to hill. I ramble the wild glens. The sea is my home. I lived at
JC> the dawn of Time. I was at my country's beginnings.
JC>
JC> I know the sound of the gun, the clash of steel, the smell of battle
JC> smoke. The hunger of the past is in my belly. There are tears in my
JC> laughing eyes. I know the tongue of my own. I spoke with kings and
JC> queens, wrestled in battle, sang with soldiers and gypsy men. I was at
JC> Clontarf and Killala, the Boyne and Limerick. I inspired Pearse and
JC> Tone. I made the new Ireland.
JC>
JC> Ye have heard my tongue, farmer and clergyman, scholar and tinker . .
JC> .
JC>
JC> Come sing with me now!
JC> --- TBBS v2.1/NM
JC> * Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612
JC> (1:109/302)

--- WM v2.03/92-0271
* Origin: Trinity Cross, Colo. Springs, CO (719)380-0751 (1:128/109)



  3 Responses to “Category : Various Text files
Archive   : EXILES.ZIP
Filename : EXILES.PT3

  1. Very nice! Thank you for this wonderful archive. I wonder why I found it only now. Long live the BBS file archives!

  2. This is so awesome! 😀 I’d be cool if you could download an entire archive of this at once, though.

  3. But one thing that puzzles me is the “mtswslnkmcjklsdlsbdmMICROSOFT” string. There is an article about it here. It is definitely worth a read: http://www.os2museum.com/wp/mtswslnk/