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Msg#: 171 *NGC National*
07-21-92 14:24:17
From: JIM CURRAN
To: ALL
Subj: IRISH EXILES
Can anyone enlighten me on how the British government, c. 1848-1850, handled
exiles to the US? Were they sent aboard warships, or what? I haven't been
able to find my g-grandfather on any of the passenger lists and have just
learned he was an exile.

Patrick Curran and 2 brothers (T.L. and another whose name I do not have yet),
were all Young Irelanders in 1848. The Young Irelanders were the rebels of
that era. All three were captured, tried, convicted and sentenced to
transportation to New South Wales. However, after the intercession of two
older brothers, James & Michael who had emigrated in the early 1840's, the
British commuted the sentences of Patrick and T.L. (Terence Louis) to
banishment in the US. The otherbrother, unnamed so far, served his sentence in
New South Wales.

If you can shed some light on how they physically arrived here, I would be very
grateful.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)


Msg#: 172 *NGC National*
07-21-92 14:39:38
From: JIM CURRAN
To: ALL
Subj: FOLLOWUP: IRISH EXILES
Realized after sending last msg, that I would also be interested if anyone can
tell how I would go about finding out if records of the trial exist.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 448 *NGC National*
07-22-92 19:44:53
From: SUE BUDLONG
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 171 (IRISH EXILES)

Jim, I have several books at home on convicts to Australia and on Irish
records. I've read all of them cover to cover and
_know_ that most of them contain information that may be helpful to you. But
the indices, where they exist, aren't helpful in the least. Please give me a
day or three, and I'll see what I can find.

BTW, there is a unified "convict index" in Australia. I have access to it
as a member of the Genealogical Society of Victoria--as soon as I re-up
(probably by September). In the meantime, you might want to direct a query
specifically to Australia to see if anyone there can look up your (no name)
CURRAN. If you don't have access to the Australian echo, I'll be happy to
cross-post it there.

A couple of questions: You say brothers James and Michael "had emigrated
in the early 1840's." To where, may I ask? To the U.S.?? If so, I'd guess
that the Irish court "remanded" Patrick and Terence Louis to the custody of
their brothers. In that case, they were probably brought over on a regular
passenger vessel (not a "convict ship" or a warship) in the custody of some
sort of officer(s) of the court and released to their brothers or their legal
representative. Have you checked for them in Atlantic port indexes? I'd also
guess that no Irish or English court could exile anyone to the U.S. circa 1850,
since we were no longer a colony. More likely, the CURRAN brothers were exiled
from Ireland or Great Britain on condition that they never return. Many of the
convicts sent to Australia suffered the same sort of exile once their sentences
expired.

My interest in Irish convicts and Young Irelanders stems from a possibly
apocryphal family story. My great-grandmother, Ellen LANDERS of Cahirciveen,
County Kerry, is said to have gone to Australia to find or visit her father, "a
political prisoner at Botany Bay." Ellen arrived in Australia about 1854,
which led me to suspect her father might have been a Young Irelander. Too
bad--her father's name continued to appear in Kerry tax records up into the
1870s. And the only Irish convict by the same name as his was a lad of Ellen's
age from Tralee, sentenced to transportation to Tasmania (Van Diemen's Land)
for stealing a cow.

BTW, do you know where the CURRAN family was from? At least the county in
Ireland?? This will probably help anyone sorting through the convict index in
Australia, and will certainly help in your search of Irish records!

Be back to you in a few daze ... Sue Budlong in Falls Church, VA
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 785 *NGC National*
07-23-92 15:53:11
From: JIM CURRAN
To: SUE BUDLONG (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 448 (IRISH EXILES)
Was reading your msg about an hour and a half ago when we had a lightning
strike. Looks like I fried a modem and God knows what else. Telephones
outside the immediate area exchanges was also out. That was a hummer!!!!!

Now have a little more information for you. Don't know the exact village (my
source is moving and all the genealogy stuff is packed), but Currans came from
just outside Ennis, Co. Clare. Michael Curran served in the Cornish Rangers in
India in the 1830's. Brother James may have also. The two of them emigrated in
1840 or 41 and may have been latter-day "icebacks". Family story suggests they
may have caught one of the Canadian lumber boats that brought lumber from
Canada to England and took back Irishmen rather than be empty on the return
trip. Cost was 1 pound if you supplied your own food, 5 pounds if you didn't.
Ships would have docked at Quebec City. Many of these then waited for the St.
Lawrence to freeze over and then walked into the U.S.

Whether or not that was their route, they ended up settling in the Keene, NH
area (West Swanzy, Manchester). Have been able to find no record of them in
any passenger lists.

When brothers Patrick, T.L. & George were captured and convicted, Michael
interceded apparently on the basis of his service as a Cornish Ranger. The
sentences for Patrick and T.L. were then commuted. I probably used the word
"exile" to too generic a sense; your description of what probably happened is
excellent. Brother George, however, apparently, ticded the British off too
much, because he was forced to serve his sentence in New South Wales.

A cousin, who is a retired doctor, while still active as a doctor, read many
medical journals from around the world. Several years ago he read one in the
Australian medical journal written by a Dr. George Curran and wondered whether
there was connection. Unfortunately, his life was too busy and never followed
up on the thought.

***HOWEVER*** - would you believe? - my sister who recently retired from
teaching has had a vacation planned for many months to - guess where? -
Australia! I have already told here that when she's in Canberra to check for
the computer data base of convicts they have there. So I may find something
that way. I am also trying to figure out how to get an index of the Australian
medical journal for the past 20-25 years and look for Dr. George Curran and
write him.

I would very much appreciate taking you up on your offer of putting something
on the Australian echo, either (or both) both convict George or Dr. George.

Coming at it from the opposite end, I am wondering about how to get info from
the Brits or Irish, such as military records of the Cornish Rangers and any
records of the trial that might exist.

Finally, have also checked passenger lists til my eyes have popped out for
Patrick & T.L. (Terrence Louis) and have found nothing. They ended up in
Clinton, MA in 1850 and had married Manning sisters, Margaret & Mary by 1854.
Would the type of vessel you suggest, warship or in custody of officials on a
passenger ships, be contained in the normal passenger lists?

Thank you greatly for the excellent, comprehensive answer. I am really out of
my depth at this point. This is the first real overseas research I have done
and it is isn't even normal sources I am looking for.

I look forward to hearing from you.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

Msg#: 2175 *NGC National*
07-27-92 17:53:00
From: SUE BUDLONG
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: IRISH EXILES, PART 1 OF 2

Following is a partial reply to your queries. Thought I'd
best do it in segments, or I'll confuse myself, as well as tie up
the echo with long messages!

If your sister will have access to the convict index while
she's in Australia, I think this is the best place to start your
research about George CURRAN--in Australia AND in Ireland. If
she can't find the information you need, you can write to the
Genealogical Society of Victoria as a non-member and for a price
($20 AUS as of May 1990) get the information from them. Based on
my query of spring 1990, here's what you'll get:

- Name of index in which found. Indexes listed on their form
letter were: New South Wales 1788-1842; Tasmania 1803-1853;
Western Australia 1850-1868; Victoria "Exiles" 1844-49; and
Moreton Bay "Exiles" 1849-50. (The "Exiles" were convicts who
had served a probationary period in England and were then
pardoned on condition of deportation.)

- Identifying information: Name of convict, place of arrival,
date of arrival, and name of ship.

- List of record offices to which to write for further
information (for a few more Australian $$), suggested reading
list, and names of some record searchers in England and Ireland.

Why do I suggest starting here? From the index citation,
you'll be certain where George was transported to (more on this
in a minute). You'll also know the date of arrival and the ship,
from which I can give you the name of the port it sailed from and
the date. If you receive the same kind of response from the
appropriate record office as I received from Tasmania, you'll
learn the date of his trial and where it was held; what exactly
the charges were; where George was "assigned" once he arrived
(many convicts were assigned out as servants or laborers to free
settlers); any behavior problems that might have resulted in
fines or incarceration in Australia; and a full physical
description, together with home place, occupation, and names of
next of kin. Once you know these things, you'll be far better
prepared to begin research in Ireland!

I've never been able to learn much about the Young
Irelanders--in particular, I've never found a list of who they
all were. From a couple of references, I do know that their
leaders, including John MITCHEL, were transported to Tasmania,
not New South Wales. This would be consistent with the fact that
NSW stopped receiving convicts in 1840. The exception was four
ships that were sent there between June and December 1849, in a
brief attempt at reviving transportation to that colony; these
were the only ones that could possibly have transported Young
Irelanders. And if you're speaking specifically of the events of
1848, even that's unlikely when you consider these ships left
home (three from England, one from Dublin) between February and
August 1849. A convict was usually tried at a local court or
assizes (I'm really not clear on British legal terms!). For
George, there'd have been at least one level of appeal, which
would have necessitated the gathering of letters and petitions.
>> more in next message <<

--- Maximus 2.00
* Origin: CPAFUG BBS (1:109/422)



Msg#: 2176 *NGC National*
07-27-92 17:55:00
From: SUE BUDLONG
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: IRISH EXILES, PART 2 OF 2

>> message continues << Then, once the final sentence was
determined, a prisoner was usually sent to a home-based prison or
to the hulks for several months to a couple of years before being
shipped out. The authorities may have expedited the Young
Ireland sentencing process because it was politically sensitive,
but my feeling is that George was much more likely to have gone
to Tasmania or Western Australia than to New South Wales. Even
deportation as an "Exile" would need to have occurred before
1850. "New South Wales" was often used generically in referring
to Australia, probably because it was the first penal colony
established there and because it received the largest number of
convicts.

In Ireland, the Convict Reference Files and Transportation
Registers are kept at the State Paper Office in Dublin Castle.
I'll see if I can find an exact address, but you'll probably want
the above-cited information before you write to them. One place
you might try now is the Clare Heritage Centre, which seems to
have the largest collection of any of the heritage centers. My
sources indicate it has a good newspaper collection. Evidently
some trials were covered in the press; I gather that Ennis and
especially Limerick had several newspapers during the period
you're interested in. Again, I'll go through my sources for the
address, or you can ask on this echo or the European one whenever
it's back to two-way operation.

Jan Worthington, an Australian genealogist, told me at the
NGS Conference in 1990 that there's a monument somewhere in
Ireland with the names of "all the Irish political prisoners."
She'd just been on a whirlwind tour of Ireland on her way here
for the conference, and thought the monument was in Kilkenny. If
you'll post or send me your mailing address, I'll send you hers,
along with the others mentioned above.

As to the Cornish Rangers, this would be a British force--
Army? I'm not the best person to ask on this subject, but will
look through my papers and see what I might have. Again, you'd
do best to post a query on the European echo once we have a
reliable link reestablished, or try a specific query here.

As for passenger lists for British warships entering
American ports--gee, I really can't say. The picture sorta
boggles my mind. You should know that the majority of "convict
transports" were merchant ships chartered by the Admiralty and
fitted out to carry convicts--usually on only one or two voyages
during their lifetime. Only a few British naval vessels were
used for convicts, and most of those were in the early years of
transportation. I'd assume that Patrick and T.L. should appear
on the passenger lists--unless they were on one of those ships
for which the lists are missing! Maybe their convict files (in
Ireland) will give the date they were "exiled," and possibly the
name of the ship.

On to Michael and James. I've heard of the Canadian lumber
transport method of arrival and have assumed it may have been the
means taken by one of my ancestral families, who arrived in
upstate New York between 1829 and 1832. Or again, they may have
been on one of the ships whose passenger lists are missing. I've
had a _very poor_ success record searching passenger lists! Have
you checked _all_ the Atlantic ports? -- Outta space, back later!
Oh, yeah, in case of need, my address is 6421 Maplewood Drive,
Falls Church, VA 22041

--- Maximus 2.00
* Origin: CPAFUG BBS (1:109/422)

Msg#: 2354 *NGC National*
07-28-92 09:34:08
From: JIM CURRAN
To: SUE BUDLONG (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 785 (IRISH EXILES)
Fantastic!! I can't tell you how pleased I am. (My terminal has suddenly
decided to go into half duplex mode, so I hope you get this properly.)

I can't thank you enough for the all the leads you have provided. On top of
the startling news about Patrick & T. L., this is a God-send.

My mailing address:
James T. Curran
1529 Denniston Ave
Pittsburgh, PA 15217
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 9895 *NGC National*
08-27-92 23:22:00
From: SUE BUDLONG
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 4571 (IRISH EXILES)
Believe it or not, I haven't forgotten you, nor has the Postal Service
done you in (yet). Package of addresses and other goodies will go in the mail
to you tomorrow. Please let me know if it arrives safely ... Sue Budlong in
Falls Church, VA

--- Maximus 2.00
* Origin: CPAFUG BBS (1:109/422)



Msg#:10141 *NGC National*
08-29-92 10:15:26
From: JIM CURRAN
To: SUE BUDLONG (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 9895 (IRISH EXILES)
Do you realize what you and I started with our exchange of messages? There has
been a steady stream of messages and I have ended up really getting on my
soapbox. This has been fascinating and extremely satisfying. And mostly
because you gave such a beautiful comrehensive answer. Thank you.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 4464 *NGC National*
08-01-92 03:38:00
From: JUDITH JASPER
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 2176 (IRISH EXILES, PART 2 OF 2)
SB> Jan Worthington, an Australian genealogist, told me at the
SB>NGS Conference in 1990 that there's a monument somewhere in
SB>Ireland with the names of "all the Irish political prisoners."
SB>She'd just been on a whirlwind tour of Ireland on her way here
SB>for the conference, and thought the monument was in Kilkenny. If
SB>you'll post or send me your mailing address, I'll send you hers,
SB>along with the others mentioned above.
I saw this post and was wondering if you would send me a list
of the addresses too? I don't know if my Samuel MOORE and
Mary FINLEY MOORE were part of this........the story passed
down from the family line is they left because of the
potato famine. My uncle says there were two diffent
decades for the famine.....1820-? and 1840-? Is that true?
Thanks for just listening
My address is:
Judith Jasper
2307 Rockview Dr.
Augusta, Ga. 30906 (U.S.A.)
--- FMail 0.90
* Origin: The Far Side BBS - Martinez, Ga. (706)868-9726 (1:360/17)



Msg#: 4517 *NGC National*
08-03-92 16:53:06
From: JIM CURRAN
To: JUDITH JASPER
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 4464 (IRISH EXILES, PART 2 OF 2)
Unfortunately, you replied to the wrong person; you should have addressed your
reply to Sue Budlong who was the one that provided such an amazing amount of
info. She offered me the list of addresses and I hope to receive them shortly.
I will forward them on if and when I receive them. However, you might want
to leave a note for her directly. She deserves some recognition for the
comprehensive replies (or should I say educations?). In fact, I have noticed
some notes from her to other people, and, in every case, she has gone out of
her way to be helpful. Way, way beyond the call of duty.

On the questions of famines: I have a little info for you there. From 1820 to
1849 there were a dozen potato (notice no 'e') famines in Ireland. Most tended
to be localized and, although it really doesn't matter if they're local if
you're starving, don't get the attention that others do. There was a very
serious general crop failure in 1825-26 (if I remmeber hte dates correctly).
But the true horror of potato famine didn't come upon the consiousness of the
world until the Great Famine of the 1840's. Actually, this was 3 separate
famines: 1845-46, 1846-47 & 1848-49.

The Famines were caused by a fungus "phythophera infestans" that turned
potatoes to mush overnight and spread from field to field like a wildfire. The
tenant Irish had Sir Walter Raleigh to thank for introducing the potato to
Ireland. Landlords, usually absentee, found the potato a particularly useful
tool to deal with their tenants.
1) The potato needed relatively little land to grow.
2) It required little cultivation, skill or care.
3) It, particlarly the "lumper" variety used in Ireland, was *VERY* cheap.
4) When supplemented by buttermilk, potatoes were capable of providing of
nutritional enough diet for the Irish to survive.

As a result, the Irish lived from one year to the next with little else other
than salt. Unfortunately, the climate of Ireland is extremely conducive to the
germination and growth of the fungus. The Great Famine killed anywhere from
1.5 to 2 million Irish. Almost as many emigrated in that period, with over 50%
of the emigrants sailing in ships of English registry dying in the "coffin
ships". Sidelight: of all the people born in Ireland since 1820, 50% have
emigrated. Ireland today is the only country in the Western world (and
possibly the whole world) that has a smaller population than it did in 1840.

Relationship to Young Irelanders: Up to the time of the Great Famine, the
Catholic Irish made their greatest gains towards freedom through the
constitutional means of the Great Liberator, Daniel O'Connell who had brought
about Catholic Emancipation in 1829. However, the Great Famine truly uncovered
the gross uncaring of the English as they let millions die to justify their
laissez faire & property rights attitudes. Thus arose the Young Irelanders who
tended to be, but ere not exclusively Protestant, at least in their leadership
ranks. There are many questions about their goals and methods to this day, but
basically they were radical revolutinaries much in the mold of the many other
revolutionary movements of 1848, even the one in England, the only difference
being that their issues were Irish issues. The rebellion. such as it was, fell
apart, and the leaders were transported for involvement in the movement.

Running out of time. Let me know if you want to hear more. TTYL.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)


Msg#: 5759 *NGC National*
08-06-92 17:27:21
From: JIM CURRAN
To: JUDITH JASPER
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 5758 (IRISH EXILES, PART II)
Here's a continuation of my previous note about Young Irelanders & the Famine:
To truly understand the horroe of the Famine and its relationship to the
Young irelanders, you have to understand that the ***ONLY*** crop that failed
was the potato crop. Throughout the Great Famine, Ireland produced enough
foodstuffs of other kinds to feed the total population of Ireland twice over.
But English policy was to export thse other foodstuffs to England and
reserve only the potato for the Irish. So the Irish died as a wealth of food
was taken from their own lands and tranported to the docks of Cork, Dublin and
Wexford, etc.
Why didn't the Irish just keep the food and not starve? Because of the
absentee landlord policies of rack-renting and eviction created a no-win
situation for the tenants. Rack-renting demanded a rent for the land that
exceeded the value of the goods produced on that land. So tenants always
operated on a deficit basis, if they were able to keep their lands at all.
Rents were collected twice a year, and, if not paid, the tenant was immediately
evicted or kept on the land, if it suited the landlord's (or his agent's)
purposes. If the tenant stayed, he dared not do or say anything that went
against the landlord. If evicted (and often blackballed) and unable to rent
another piece of land at an extortionate rent, he and his family died unless
they were able to emigrate. Above all this was the fact that the land
produced more income for the landlord if it were put to sheep pasturage. So it
behooved the landlord to maximize his profit by "clearing the land", i.e.,
evicting his own tenants. Who were the tenants? Primarily Catholics who lived
out their lives on the brink of penury and starvation. People in this
condition in general don't start revolutions; they may man them, but they
don't start them. They're too busy trying to stay alive.
So who started the revolutions? The surprising answer in Ireland is the
Protestants! Up to the Easter Rising of 1916, and with the exception of Daniel
O'Connell in 1810-1840, all leaders of Irish rebellions were Protestant.
However, the term Protestant, in the context of Ireland, needs some explanation
because there were two major groupings: the Church of Ireland (Episcopalian)
and all other Protestant faiths, known as Dissenters. Dissenters received
almost as bad treatment from the English as the Catholics. Only Church of
Ireland members prospered in Ireland. In fact, every Irishman, no matter what
his faith, had to tithe to the Church of Ireland for several centuries. The
mistreatment of Dissenters is what led to the wholesale emigration of the
Scots-Irish in the 1700's and early 1800's. And it is this background that
fueled our own Revolution. I have seen estimates that suggest as much as 65% of
Washington's army were either born in Ireland or were of Irish extraction.
Just look at a list of the Presidents who are of Irish extraction and you will
start to understand the impact of English policies in Ireland.
Up to 1845, very few Catholic Irish emigrated, and the emigration of
Scots-Irish had pretty much died. The Famine started wholesale emigration of
the Catholics that led to the "No Irish Need Apply" syndrome experienced in
this country at the end of the century.
Another result of the Famine was the death of Gaelic Ireland. Up to 1850, the
majority of the country was Gaelic, speaking the Gaelic language and following
Gaelic customs. In an act of utter revulsion and guilt, Catholic Irish
believed God was punishing them with the Famine and they overthrew virtually
all of their own customs and usages. By 1860, with the exception of a few
Gaelic-speaking areas in the West of Ireland (notably Connemara, Co. Clare &
the far reaches of Co. Donegal), Gaelic society disappeared, not to reappear
(in a very anaemic form) until the 1890's with the Gaelic Revival.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)



Msg#: 5760 *NGC National*
08-06-92 17:28:21
From: JIM CURRAN
To: JUDITH JASPER
Subj: IRISH EXILES, PART III
All this to answer a very short, supposedly simple question: Would Famine
emigres be the same people as Young Irelanders? The answer is a resounding
"NO!" Not that their interests weren't often the same;
it's just that they came from totally different social and cultural classes.
Famine emigres in that period were almost 100% Catholic who had spent their
lives barely keeping themselves alive. Young Irelanders, on the other hand,
including those transported for involvement in the movement, were, for the most
part, Protestants. The Young Irelanders tended to be more well-off, were almost
surely not tenant farmers, and adhered to a British society and culture rather
than a Gaelic. While their movement was prompted in some degree by the horrors
of the Famine, they were moved more by the centuries old history of abuses of
the English against Ireland.
So much for my soapbox. I hope you enjoyed it.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)


Msg#: 9415 *NGC National*
08-12-92 14:13:00
From: JIM CURRAN
To: JUDITH JASPER
Subj: MORE ON FAMINE
Have been thinking about our series of notes on Famine / Young Irelanders and
realized my approach in the previous notes had been extremely pedantic . . .
not my usual style. So I thought you might like a small piece of my show from
the segment about the Famine. That segment ends with the following:

With their only food turning to slime before their very eyes, no one had to be
told that all the great and simple purposes of existence were soon to be
forgotten in the oncoming struggle with Death.

And the Irish died. 1.5 to 2 million died as they lived, servile. Nursing
babies died first. Their mothers died soon after. Eventually even the
strongest died. Often the last to die were the children for whom their parents
had sacrificed their own food. They died alone. They died as families. They
died on the roads. They died in the fields. They died in their homes. They
died with the distended bellies of starvation and they died with grass stains
zon their lips while all around them non-potato crops sufficient to feed them
twice over were reserved for export to England.

The Irish died. Gaelic Ireland died.



Now if that doesn't spoil your day, I've missed my mark.


--- Maximus 2.01wb
* Origin: The Skeleton Closet BBS, Virginia Beach, VA (1:271/23)



Msg#: 6328 *NGC National*
08-06-92 01:30:00
From: JUDITH JASPER
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 4517 (RE: IRISH EXILES, PART 2 OF 2)
That was great! It confirms what I have found and lists a lot more. Thanks! I
am sorry I directed the message to you.....when it was meant for someone else.
I do that occasionally, as I can't figure out how to get my pick list to
reflect both parties of the message I am quoting. Oh, goodness.
Thanks again!

--- FMail 0.90
* Origin: The Far Side BBS - Martinez, Ga. (706)868-9726 (1:360/17)

Msg#: 9062 *NGC National*
08-16-92 16:25:00
From: JUDITH JASPER
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 5759 (IRISH EXILES, PART II)
JC> Another result of the Famine was the death of Gaelic Ireland. Up to 1850,
JC>the majority of the country was Gaelic, speaking the Gaelic language and
JC>following Gaelic customs. In an act of utter revulsion and guilt, Catholic
JC>Irish believed God was punishing them with the Famine and they overthrew
JC>virtually all of their own customs and usages. By 1860, with the exception
JC>of a few Gaelic-speaking areas in the West of Ireland (notably Connemara,
JC>Co. Clare & the far reaches of Co. Donegal), Gaelic society disappeared,
JC>not to reappear (except in a very anaemic form) until the 1890's with
JC> the Gaelic Revival.
JC> All this to answer a very short, supposedly simple question: Would
Wordy, aren't we" GRIN! I enjoyed reading that...not the travail
of my ancestors....but being able to identify with them. My grandma
spoke Gaelic.....I am sure. For she spoke a strange mixture of
foreign and American language. When I started school.....my teachers
were mystified at my speach. I had major speech problems. I spoke
with an Irish accent....and had picked up a lot of grandma's strange
idioms......I had to go through speech therapy for three years.
I couldn't say iron...it came out ern or something of the sort.
I got in trouble for trying to tell the teacher I cut my knee with
an axe....don't ask....hee hee,just imagine....how that word came
out. Now I sound so southern, I go back home and they ask me
what part of the south am I from. I always tell them, south Lancaster
.......south west to be exact. GRIN! But I always loved to listen
to my grandma talk. Wish I'd had a tape recorder back then. Kinda makes
me feel homesick,when I hear an Irish brogue. Course, I imagine it
wasn't strictly Irish....if greatgrandma Mary really came from
Scotland.
--- FMail 0.90
* Origin: The Far Side BBS - Martinez, Ga. (706)868-9726 (1:360/17)


Msg#: 6501 *NGC National*
08-18-92 08:48:00
From: PAUL PETERSEN
To: JIM CURRAN (Rcvd)
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 5884 (MORE ON FAMINE)
jim, i wonder if you're using the word 'died' and 'die' too often... if you
get a chance look for The American Experience episode on the irish shown on
PBS. the narrator has a grand style... 🙂

--- FMail 0.90
* Origin: Windsor Amateur Radio Union (203)298-9989 (1:142/100)



Msg#: 6742 *NGC National*
08-21-92 10:46:19
From: JIM CURRAN
To: PAUL PETERSEN
Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 6501 (MORE ON FAMINE)
The effect was deliberate. I was a little concerned about it at first, but the
three times it has been performed since that section was rewritten have met
with an incredible response. The emphasis was to underline in no uncertain
terms the overall effect of the Famine and the fact that the lives it ended
were only a small part of the terrible death and tragedy attending the Famine.
Individual families were destroyed and larger families disappeared from the
face of the earth. A whole way of life disintegrated and was reviled by
precisely those who had so honored it only a few years before. A nation was
crippled in a fashion whose effects are still felt today in very real, personal
terms. Depending on whose estimates you use or believe, (and BTW that is a
symptom of the disruption: they could neither name nor count nor list their
dead) in excess of 20% of the nation died from the direct effects of the
Famine, another 10 to 20% died in ensuing years from Famine-related debilities
and sicknesses, and worst of all, an additional 20-25% of the population, its
best and brightest, those best able to survive the effects of the Famine and
best able to help the nation recover from its nightmare of death, emigrated,
never to return in the years immediately following the Famine.

While I understand your statement, I disagree with it violently. And using
McKee's "History of Ireland" as a model of how it should be done is like waving
a red flag in front of a bull. While McKee attempted to be fair, and was
remarkably successful in many places, the fact remains that his attitudes and
perspectives are those of an Englishman and they show through in every segment.


Maybe a short description of the "American wake" will put my use of "died" in a
more Irish perspective for you. The Irish from time immemorial "waked" the
dead. This ceremony, which ended up more often than not in a party, consisted
primarily of staying up with the corpse of the dead person to keep away evil
spirits from stealing the soul before God could gather the dead person to him.
It contained exceptionally large doses of both devout Christianity and
paganism. After the Famine, the wake was used to celebrate the leave-taking
of the emigrants and during the two generations after the Famine became a
tradition-laden fact of Irish life. Unlike most other emigrant groups,
particularly of that time, the Irish emigrated singly, not as family units. The
primary reason was the cost; they were too poor to afford passage for more than
one person in a family at a time. In fact, each emigrant was expected to send
back money to bring the next member of the family; this was called "bringing
the greenhorn". The wake for the emigrant became known as the "American
wake". And the process contained among other things, prayers, tears, keening
and treating the emigrant as a dead person. As macabre as it may seem, an
"American wake" was considered a great honor by an emigrant. He was honored
while he still lived and was shown tremendous respect.

I hope this might clarify somewhat where I am coming from.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
* Origin: Nat'l Genealogical Society, Arlington VA 703-528-2612 (1:109/302)

+++++++++



  3 Responses to “Category : Various Text files
Archive   : EXILES.ZIP
Filename : EXILES.PT1

  1. Very nice! Thank you for this wonderful archive. I wonder why I found it only now. Long live the BBS file archives!

  2. This is so awesome! 😀 I’d be cool if you could download an entire archive of this at once, though.

  3. But one thing that puzzles me is the “mtswslnkmcjklsdlsbdmMICROSOFT” string. There is an article about it here. It is definitely worth a read: http://www.os2museum.com/wp/mtswslnk/